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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:34 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Actually, "qualified immunity" would protect cops and other governmental officials from suit today (at least under Federal law, including claims for violation of one's rights under the US Constitution). I don't know for sure whether every state has adopted similar protections for state laws/constitutions, but I'd be amazed if they haven't. Basically, unless the government official acts in a manner that any reasonable person should know violates "clearly established law", he/she can't be sued in their individual capacity. If there's a law on the books, I imagine it'd be pretty much impossible to successfully pierce qualified immunity by arguing in retrospect that its unConstitutionality was "clearly established" before the courts had overturned it.

Yeah, in that specific case I think the officer would be immune these days. However, in my previous example of the new anti **** agency, qualified immunity would not apply as the agent would not be a government official. Normally the de facto officer doctrine would cover illegitimate government officials in being immune from prosecution, but in the specific case of the courts declaring an entire agency unconstitutional, the precedent from the Supreme Court is that they are not de facto officers (as they lack a de jure office) and would not be given any of the protections normally given to government officials.

At least, that's my understanding from what I've read. If you have any more modern information that contradicts that I'd be interested in reading more. It's hard for me to research it without any journal access.

There are also a few cases of ordinary being sued or charged for acting under a law that was declared unconstitutional later, and qualified immunity wouldn't be a factor there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:51 am 
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Khross wrote:
You know, this kind of argument only comes about because contemporary Americans don't understand what a didactic, negative rights document with deliberately restrictive language does. I mean, hell, we have a government agent who still doesn't grok the 9th and 10th Amendments; and that doesn't surprise me, because the 9th and 10th Amendments are (not so amazingly) universally taught as being little more than non-substantive feel good measures that have no impact on governance.

What those two amendments say, on the other hand, is that our Federal government, under no circumstances except Amendment, has no powers not SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITLY defined in the preceding text of our Constitution. That this thread continues to go on is not Amanar's fault, but the fault of an American society dependent on public education. A government is what a government does. If the Constitution actually mattered, the Obama Administration would be in jail, 90% of our legislatures would be pending sentencing, and John Roberts would have been drawn and quartered. It doesn't matter anymore. Our government has demonstrated a complete disregard for the Constitution, and our education has convinced most of you that the document's meaning changes because of lexical drift.

The Constitution is not a document to be interpreted.


Do you understand the conflict here? You're blaming poor education for why discussions like this occur, then turning around and conceding that yes, that's the way it really works. Not should work - does work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
However, in my previous example of the new anti **** agency, qualified immunity would not apply as the agent would not be a government official. Normally the de facto officer doctrine would cover illegitimate government officials in being immune from prosecution, but in the specific case of the courts declaring an entire agency unconstitutional, the precedent from the Supreme Court is that they are not de facto officers (as they lack a de jure office) and would not be given any of the protections normally given to government officials.

At least, that's my understanding from what I've read. If you have any more modern information that contradicts that I'd be interested in reading more. It's hard for me to research it without any journal access.

I've never looked into the de facto vs de jure officer stuff in the Con Law context (as opposed to contractual reliance issues) before, so I don't know off the top of my head. I'll poke around when I have some time later this week, but I actually don't have much more access than you do for non-client billable inquiries, since our firm gets charged whenever we access the various database services. That said, although the Norton opinion you cited does hold that in the absence of a de jure office, there can be no de facto officer, I don't think it actually rules on whether or not there was a de jure office. There's some dicta on the subject, but since it was a question of state constitutional law, already ruled on by the state supreme court, the USSC simply took the state court's ruling that there was no de jure office as binding - "Upon the first question presented, that which relates to the lawful existence and authority of the county commissioners, we are relieved from the necessity of passing. That has been authoritatively determined by the supreme court of Tennessee, and is not open for consideration by us." So, even if Norton is still good law, it wouldn't control on the question of whether or not the **** agency constituted de jure offices.

Also, courts love to make distinctions, so it's worth noting that in Norton the constitutional violation was in the process by which the offices were created, whereas in the **** case, the violation would be in the purposes for which the agency was created. So, even if the Norton court's dicta on the de jure issue were to be treated as persuasive authority, one could argue that although it would be unConstitutional for the **** agency to pursue its mandate, the agency offices themselves were created through a Constitutionally valid procedure and thus exist de jure. Further, even on the issue of whether a person can be a de facto officer in the absence of a de jure office, the court could distinguish Norton from the **** case by saying that the issue in Norton was whether such person could be considered a de facto officer for the purposes of binding the government to an obligation, whereas in the **** case, the issue would be whether a person could be a considered a de facto officer for the purposes of being protected by qualified immunity. Different context, potentially different result.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Amanar - Try poking around http://www.law.cornell.edu/ a bit. There are a lot of good cases that pop up if you search on things like "Norton v. Shelby County", "de facto officer", "de jure office", etc. From a quick glance around, it seems like Norton has been pretty heavily watered down by now, if not outright overturned. See Lemon v. Kurtzman (1973), for example:

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Appellants urge, as they did in the District Court, a strange amalgam of flexibility and absolutism. Appellants assure us that they do not seek to require the schools to disgorge prior payments received under Act 109; in the same breath, appellants insist that the presently disputed payment be enjoined because an unconstitutional statute 'confers no rights; it imposes no duties; it affords no protection; it creates no office; it is, in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.' Norton v. Shelby County, 118 U.S. 425, 442, 6 S.Ct. 1121, 1125, 30 L.Ed. 178 (1886). Conceding that we have receded from Norton in a host of criminal decisions and in other recent constitutional decisions relating to municipal bonds, appellants nevertheless view those precedents as departures from the established norm of Norton. We disagree.

The process of reconciling the constitutional interests reflected in a new rule of law with reliance interests founded upon the old is 'among the most difficult of those which have engaged the attention of courts, state and federal . . ..' Chicot County Drainage Dist. v. Baxter State Bank, 308 U.S. 371, 374, 60 S.Ct. 317, 319, 84 L.Ed. 329 (1940). Consequently, our holdings in recent years have emphasized that the effect of a given constitutional ruling on prior conduct 'is subject to no set 'principle of absolute retroactive invalidity' but depends upon a consideration of 'particular relations . . . and particular conduct . . . of rights claimed to have become vested, of status, of prior determinations deemed to have finality'; and 'of public policy in the light of the nature both of the statute and of its previous application." Linkletter, supra, 381 U.S., at 627, 85 S.Ct., at 1736, quoting from Chicot County Drainage Dist., supra, 308 U.S., at 374, 60 S.Ct., at 319. However appealing the logic of Norton may have been in the abstract, its abandonment reflected our recognition that statutory or even judge-made rules of law are hard facts on which people must rely in making decisions and in shaping their conduct. This fact of legal life underpins our modern decisions recognizing a doctrine of nonretroactivity. Appellants offer no persuasive reason for confining the modern approach to those constitutional cases involving criminal procedure or municipal bonds, and we ourselves perceive none.

...

In the end, then, appellants' position comes down to this: that any reliance whatever by the schools was unjustified because Act 109 was an 'untested' state statute whose validity had never been authoritatively determined. The short answer to this argument is that governments must act if they are to fulfill their high responsibilities. As one scholar has observed, the diverse state governments were preserved by the Framers 'as separate sources of authority and organs of administration—a point on which they hardly had a choice.' H. Wechsler, Principles, Politics, and Fundamental Law 50 (1961).

Appellants ask, in effect, that we hold those charged with executing state legislative directives to the peril of having their arrangements unraveled if they act before there has been an authoritative judicial determination that the governing legislation is constitutional. Appellants would have state officials stay their hands until newly enacted state programs are 'ratified' by the federal courts, or risk draconian, retrospective decrees should the legislation fall. In our view, appellants' position could seriously undermine the initiative of state legislators and executive officials alike. Until judges say otherwise, state officers—the officers of Pennsylvania—have the power to carry forward the directives of the state legislature. Those officials may, in some circumstances, elect to defer acting until an authoritative judicial pronouncement has been secured; but particularly when there are no fixed and clear constitutional precedents, the choice is essentially one of political discretion and one this Court has never conceived as an incident of judicial review. We do not engage lightly in post hoc evaluation of such political judgment, founded as it is on 'one of the first principles of constitutional adjudication—the basic presumption of the constitutional validity of a duly enacted state or federal law.' San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez, 411 U.S. 1, at 60, 93 S.Ct. 1278, at 1311, 36 L.Ed.2d 16 (1973) (Stewart, J., concurring).


You know, poking around in some of these cases is starting to jog my memory of Con Law a bit. If I remember correctly, the Court's doctrines regarding the retroactivity of rulings on Constitutional matters are kind of all over the map. Sometimes, the Court requires that a new Constitutional interpretation be applied retroactively, whereas other times the new rule only applies prospectively. And yes, in criminal matters, that means that sometimes people who were convicted under an old Constitutional interpretation stay in prison even though they might not have been convicted under the new interpretation. Can't believe I'd forgotten that; I remember now being thoroughly appalled when we were discussing it in my Con Law class back in the day.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
No, you cannot, and no he cannot. He acted in good-faith belief that the **** statute was Constitutional. You can try.. but you'll fail.

Are you going to just keep making stuff up, or are you going to actually bring some evidence to the discussion? The United States Supreme Court says you can, in the case Norton v. Shelby, which has never been overturned. Why should I believe you over the Supreme Court?


Because of all the reasons RD already pointed out for me. There's a legal concept called "good faith" that I cited, and it applies to everyone. You keep citing one particular dicta from the Norton case as if that were the entirity of the case, taken totally out of context, and in a case which, as RD points out, the matter at hand is the process of creating the legal office

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Practically speaking, you're probably right that you wouldn't get charged criminally, and it will depend a lot on the circumstances, the judge, and the state you're tried in. But an officer's "good-faith" belief in an unconstitutional law is not any more valid as a defense than a libertarian's good-faith belief that a law is unconstitutional and thus doesn't need to be followed. And there are many examples of successful lawsuits against people following a law that was later deemed unconstitutional.


You would never get charged criminally. "Following an unConstitutional law" is not a crime that people can be charged with. If there were such a crime, it would run afoul of the ex post facto clause.

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Example: Sumner v. Beeler, Indiana Supreme Court (1875). An officer was sued for arrest that was made under a statute that was later ruled unconstitutional. The Indiana Supreme Court concluded he was liable for damages, stating: "All persons are presumed to know the law and if they act under an unconstitutional enactment of the legislature they do so at their own peril and must take the consequences."


We are not talking about the State of Indiana or its Constitution. You also might want to cite the actual decision, not just one line of it or one paragraph as you seem to be in the habit of doing. In point of fact, there's an interesting detail about that case - see page 6, 1st paragraph. It is not actually known if the arrest took place before or after the statute was declared unConstitutional, and the best that can be said is that the ISC "seemed to assume" that it was. The article discusses that courts in different states had ruled differently on that question as of 1926 when the article was published.

In regard to your "practically, wouldn't be charged with a crime" the same article says, in the very first line on page 7, that an officer is not criminally liable for acting under an unConstitutional statute.

In fact, the Supreme Court of Indiana ought to have been more careful in its wording. "Everyone is presumed to know the law" does not somehow extend to "Everyone is presumed to know in advance how the courts will decide." Not only is that obviously impossible, but if everyone could know that, there would be no point in having the courts rule at all. Everyone would already know the answer and there could be no dispute.

The article goes on to discuss the problems associated with this idea of "unConstitutional at passage". If a law is found unConstitutional at first, then later Constitutional, it could not possibly have been defective from the time of passage; the only thing that has changed is the ruling of the court. In the opposite situation, it demands that people regard a statute explicitly ruled Constitutional as not so, simply because the court eventually ruled to the contrary.

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