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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:44 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
A quick search on Google identified several lawsuits that have been filed recently alleging that no education was provided, and work was done that would have otherwise been done by paid employees.

This lends some credence to Xeq's statement that this is occurring, but also indicates there is a check on this.


Wait, what the ****.... that's what an internship IS.

/facepalm


No, the general agreement is that there is a labor exchange for some sort of training, apprenticeship, or education. The suits appear to claim there was labor, but no education or training. So the intern held up his end of the agreement, but the company did not. Allegedly. I'm sure some have more validity than others.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
A quick search on Google identified several lawsuits that have been filed recently alleging that no education was provided, and work was done that would have otherwise been done by paid employees.

This lends some credence to Xeq's statement that this is occurring, but also indicates there is a check on this.


That indicates that the concept of an internship has been abused, but it doesn't point to a meaningful trend of using interns to replace paid employees across the economy in general.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
A quick search on Google identified several lawsuits that have been filed recently alleging that no education was provided, and work was done that would have otherwise been done by paid employees.

This lends some credence to Xeq's statement that this is occurring, but also indicates there is a check on this.


Wait, what the ****.... that's what an internship IS.

/facepalm


No, the general agreement is that there is a labor exchange for some sort of training, apprenticeship, or education. The suits appear to claim there was labor, but no education or training. So the intern held up his end of the agreement, but the company did not. Allegedly. I'm sure some have more validity than others.


Not only this, but the laws around internships also state that the company has to provide MORE value to the intern, than vice versa.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
A quick search on Google identified several lawsuits that have been filed recently alleging that no education was provided, and work was done that would have otherwise been done by paid employees.

This lends some credence to Xeq's statement that this is occurring, but also indicates there is a check on this.


Wait, what the ****.... that's what an internship IS.

/facepalm


No, the general agreement is that there is a labor exchange for some sort of training, apprenticeship, or education. The suits appear to claim there was labor, but no education or training. So the intern held up his end of the agreement, but the company did not. Allegedly. I'm sure some have more validity than others.


The work IS the education. If I have some student with no practical experience come into my workplace and function on teams executing high-level deliverables, they are most assuredly learning valuable skills during this time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:03 pm 
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People don't understand what constitutes a transaction in this day and age. No one ever said we had to transact everything in currency.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Sadly yes. However I'm not sure whose fault it is.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:24 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
The work IS the education. If I have some student with no practical experience come into my workplace and function on teams executing high-level deliverables, they are most assuredly learning valuable skills during this time.


That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.
I can tell you, from my professional experience, that the vast majority of people applying for jobs today could use a lot more "***** work" in their history. In fact, most of your MBAs and CPAs could do with worlds of ***** work in their work history. Then they might know a few things about what they're trying to do now.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.
I can tell you, from my professional experience, that the vast majority of people applying for jobs today could use a lot more "***** work" in their history. In fact, most of your MBAs and CPAs could do with worlds of ***** work in their work history. Then they might know a few things about what they're trying to do now.


I can tell you that while this may be entirely true, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that making an intern who was promised work experience in areas relevant to their study do these things as the substantial portion of their internship is a fraudulent bait-and-switch. In fact, the people you're citing as needing more ***** work are the ones most likely to be shoving it off on interns.

If those people you mention need "***** work" (which they very well may) I know where they can get it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Oh, I can think of several "***** work jobs" that would provide better internships than even a mentored internship at Goldman-Sachs; inventory clerk comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:52 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The work IS the education. If I have some student with no practical experience come into my workplace and function on teams executing high-level deliverables, they are most assuredly learning valuable skills during this time.


That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.


Generally speaking, I disagree. There would, of course, be exceptions.

We'd have to get deep into specifics of what internships, at what companies, etc. to really determine if something wasn't valuable (and was thus an exception). But at a professional service or finance firm, the last two items in your list (fixing powerpoint slides and 'general ***** work') are quite educational.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:06 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The work IS the education. If I have some student with no practical experience come into my workplace and function on teams executing high-level deliverables, they are most assuredly learning valuable skills during this time.


That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.


Generally speaking, I disagree. There would, of course, be exceptions.

We'd have to get deep into specifics of what internships, at what companies, etc. to really determine if something wasn't valuable (and was thus an exception). But at a professional service or finance firm, the last two items in your list (fixing powerpoint slides and 'general ***** work') are quite educational.


Bottom line, is that there's an agreement between two parties to provide education/experience for labor. The definition of those terms are really up to the parties involved. Nobody's above fetching coffee, but there should be a balance between menial tasks and educational tasks. There is some education in just being in an office, but that's probably not enough. The point of internships is not to avoid hiring a low-skilled worker to perform menial tasks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Bottom line, is that there's an agreement between two parties to provide education/experience for labor. The definition of those terms are really up to the parties involved. Nobody's above fetching coffee, but there should be a balance between menial tasks and educational tasks. There is some education in just being in an office, but that's probably not enough. The point of internships is not to avoid hiring a low-skilled worker to perform menial tasks.
The point of an internship is precisely that ...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Wow I guess it is a trend.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exch ... 48397.html

Quote:
Are Unpaid Internships Legal? Understanding the Court’s Recent Rulings

By Camille A. Olson and Christopher A. Nelson

It’s now summer, which means internship season is in full swing. Candidates have done their research and landed positions, hoping to develop their professional skills or add a credential to their resume.

Internships are commonly considered to be temporary, unpaid positions that do not constitute an “employee-employer” relationship. In recent years, however, the economic recession has made the job market smaller and more competitive. With companies interested in lower costs and job candidates desperate for any opportunity, previously assumed distinctions between “employee” and “intern” have become increasingly challenged.

Recent developments

Within the last 18 months, several lawsuits have been filed on behalf of current and former interns against companies including Hearst Corp. and Fox Searchlight Pictures. The complaints generally allege that summer workers classified as “interns” are actually “employees” under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and other state employment laws, and, as such, are entitled to minimum-wage and overtime compensation for their hours worked.

Recent developments in Wang v. Hearst Corp. and Glatt v. Fox Searchlight Pictures Inc. illustrate the difficulty faced by both employers and Courts in determining the legality of unpaid internships. In Wang, the Court ruled against certifying a proposed class of interns, concluding that genuine issues of fact existed as to whether the Plaintiffs were employees. In Glatt, the Court landed on the opposite side of the same coin, reasoning that the Plaintiffs were employees and certifying a class of office-based interns. The Court in Glatt determined that common facts predominated, and one determination based on those common facts would be appropriate to resolve the issue of the status of all of the interns at issue.

Although they reached different conclusions, Judge Harold Baer, of the Wang case, and Judge William Pauley III, of Glatt, used the same legal standards to determine employment status: the FLSA, Walling v. Portland Terminal Co. 330 U.S. 148 (1947), and the Department of Labor’s (DOL) April 2010 “Fact Sheet # 71: Internship Programs Under The Fair Labor Standards Act” (“DOL six-factor test”).

The Courts in both cases particularly relied on the DOL six-factor test as the framework to interpret the facts. The six factors are relevant because, as explained by Judge Baer, “they emanate from the agency that administers the laws under which Plaintiffs brought this lawsuit,” and “suggest a framework for an analysis of the employee-employer relationship.” (Wang Order at 6)

How did two judges using the same legal framework reach such different conclusions? One explanation lies in how they applied “total consideration” of the facts as they relate to the DOL six-factor test. Judge Baer and Judge Pauley agree that Walling established a standard of “total consideration” of the employer-employee relationship to determine employment status. Judge Baer denied summary judgment and class certification for Plaintiffs because Hearst displayed “some” training, benefit to individual interns, and impediment to Hearst's regular operations, and that a “totality of circumstances” approach would require individual interpretation of each intern’s experience with regard to those factors. (Wang Order at 7) Judge Pauley, on the other hand, concluded that although some of the factors leaned toward “intern” status, the “totality of circumstances” indicated that Plaintiffs were classified improperly and ruled as such. (Glatt Order at 26)

What does it all mean?

First, it is worth noting that the Plaintiffs in Wang filed an appeal on Judge Baer’s ruling, and that the Defendant in Glatt may choose to do the same. If the Second Circuit grants review, the decision from the appellate court may have far reaching implications, particularly in whether the plaintiffs’ bar decides to pursue similar unpaid internship cases.

Second, although Judge Pauley’s ruling has received much attention as being a ruling that could “end” the unpaid internship, it is important to note that the ruling applies to different Plaintiffs. Judge Pauley granted summary judgment determining that two production side Plaintiffs were misclassified as interns, however, no determination has yet been made on the employee status of the office-based, certified class. Applying the DOL six-factor test to a broader class could prove too subjective for Court to ultimately grant employee status in Glatt and other comparable cases.

Companies can still minimize risk

Finally, while the Court continues to eke out the details, here are some tips to keep in mind for minimizing litigation risk while using interns:
•The safest approach for most companies is to treat interns as employees by paying them in compliance with FLSA minimum-wage law.
•Working with local universities or colleges could help decrease risk, both through granting interns academic credit, and by establishing different credit requirements, policies, or internship handbooks for programs based on the intern’s academic interest.
•Tailoring internship programs to include training that emphasizes individual development, such as matching interns with mentors for informal training meetings, will help ensure that interns benefit proportionally from their internship, further diminishing potential litigation risk.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Uncited, unfortunately:

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Senators introduce bill to raise full-time employment threshold

In the ACA, employers with 50 or more full-time employees—defined as those averaging 30 or more hours weekly—must provide affordable health insurance coverage to employees or pay a penalty. Wednesday, Senators Susan Collins (R-ME) and Joe Donnelly (D-IN) introduced a bill to raise the full-time work threshold to 40 hours a week. Their bill also asks President Barack Obama to delay the employer penalty for failing to offer affordable health coverage beyond January 1, when it’s scheduled to take effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:50 pm 
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No tweaks. Get rid of it. The whole thing is a mess for so many reasons.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:52 pm 
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So is that so that companies stop cutting hours or is that so more companies are exempted from providing?
:psyduck:

Net result is the same but the intent is different?
:psyduck:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So is that so that companies stop cutting hours or is that so more companies are exempted from providing?
:psyduck:

Net result is the same but the intent is different?
:psyduck:


I'm guessing it's the former. It came across my desk unsourced, so I can't look at the source material.

Apologies.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Bottom line, is that there's an agreement between two parties to provide education/experience for labor. The definition of those terms are really up to the parties involved. Nobody's above fetching coffee, but there should be a balance between menial tasks and educational tasks. There is some education in just being in an office, but that's probably not enough. The point of internships is not to avoid hiring a low-skilled worker to perform menial tasks.
The point of an internship is precisely that ...


No, it's not. The point of internships from an intern's perspective is to gain valuable real-world experience and education. The point of internships from a employer perspective is to provide valuable real-world experience and education to a potential future hire, thereby developing a relationship with the potential future hire and grooming them to be productive immediately following graduation. In the process, employers expect to gain some limited level of productivity from this mostly unskilled employee.

That is the (general) expectation. Personally, I avoid the entire situation by paying my interns.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Arathain:

Entry-level tasks and knowledge are almost always menial. You seem to think menial is solely the province of gofers, but that's not actually the case. Cataloging and filing paperwork is menial, but that doesn't mean the 6 week long project isn't useful or beneficial to the intern. Processing receipts on a loading dock is menial, but a damn sight more valuable than looking over the books with a CPA when it comes to understanding the bottom line. Interns do menial work primarily because of all the legal obligations and encumbrances on meaningful work.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:24 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The work IS the education. If I have some student with no practical experience come into my workplace and function on teams executing high-level deliverables, they are most assuredly learning valuable skills during this time.


That's true. However, you need to provide enough of that education to offset the work done. If the student is doing nothing but cleaning up, fetching coffee, making photocopies, fixing powerpoint slides, and generally doing ***** work because "oh, make the intern do it" then they aren't doing the type of work that benefits them educationally.


Generally speaking, I disagree. There would, of course, be exceptions.

We'd have to get deep into specifics of what internships, at what companies, etc. to really determine if something wasn't valuable (and was thus an exception). But at a professional service or finance firm, the last two items in your list (fixing powerpoint slides and 'general ***** work') are quite educational.


If it's educational (in the field they are in the internship for; I don't consider the sort of education that "you're at the bottom of the totem pole and you just have to do it" to be "education" that the intern has agreed to in and of itself, regardless of how much it might help their attitude) then it doesn't qualify as ***** work, IMO.

As for PowerPoint slides, I'm not talking about creating a briefing or presentation as a project; that is definitely worthwhile. I'm talking about getting handed a set of PowerPoint slides and doing nothing but cleaning up and beautifying them cosmetically, or something like that. That's no more educational than coffee-fetching.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
As for PowerPoint slides, I'm not talking about creating a briefing or presentation as a project; that is definitely worthwhile. I'm talking about getting handed a set of PowerPoint slides and doing nothing but cleaning up and beautifying them cosmetically, or something like that. That's no more educational than coffee-fetching.
Wax on, wax off, disagrees.

Internships are about developing skill-sets that compliment that knowledge-set you ostensibly develop during formal, institutional education. Beautifying a PowerPoint presentation is a valuable task and about more than just making someone's presentation look good. The fact of the matter is, amusingly, that you don't have enough experience in the private sector to truly understand the situation. You're far too situated in public sector work spaces and occupations.

Interns do **** work. Interns do **** work, because practical business education is iterative and cumulative. They have to learn how to navigate an office space. In fact, coffee runs are a good tool. I have 14 subordinates in my work unit. I can get their coffee order without paper. So can my intern, if he uses it as an opportunity to work on short-term and associative memory skills. In fact, the morning coffee order is probably one of the best ways to practice one's Memory Palace.

Likewise, resume dressing has monetary value.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'm talking about getting handed a set of PowerPoint slides and doing nothing but cleaning up and beautifying them cosmetically, or something like that. That's no more educational than coffee-fetching.


Knowing how to make a quality powerpoint is a valuable skill.

Owning the entire presentation from start to end is never, ever, going to be given directly to an intern at any company I've ever heard of.

Being the "coffee fetcher" as it were is generally just a totem-pole factor in many corporate cultures.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:33 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I'm talking about getting handed a set of PowerPoint slides and doing nothing but cleaning up and beautifying them cosmetically, or something like that. That's no more educational than coffee-fetching.


Knowing how to make a quality powerpoint is a valuable skill.

Owning the entire presentation from start to end is never, ever, going to be given directly to an intern at any company I've ever heard of.

Being the "coffee fetcher" as it were is generally just a totem-pole factor in many corporate cultures.


You don't learn to make a quality powerpoint from changing all the fonts to the same size and typeface. If someone doesn't already know what is and what is not a quality powerpoint, being handed one and being told to correct certain aspects of the formatting won't teach them. The end result may be amazing, or it may still be terrible; they won't have the experience to know the difference.

Not that I'm terribly concerned with PowerPoint, but what I'm discussing above is a common problem with interns and junior people in general. They're handed rote tasks, told to "learn" from them, but lack the experience to effectively self-teach.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Building relationships is the most important lesson you will ever learn in your work life. I have had 3 full time position, 2 of which I received because of the relationship I built. (One from the first job, and one from a un-paid intern position which lasted 6 weeks). Unfortunately the fact that most interns cannot recognise the type of rewards they can achieve, does not mean there are no rewards. Opportunities avail themselves to those who recognise it for a reason, it’s Darwinism at its best.

Interning is not school, you don’t get fed, you have to seek out the knowledge. It’s not the employer’s duty to hold the intern’s hand. Once you graduate, that’s it, you’re a big boy/girl now, sink or swim.

Fixing up a power-point is probably one of the best things you could hope for. You see the type of presentation, the necessary information that goes into it, the amount of fluff required, level of verbiage used, and what is important enough for your boss to be putting into the presentation. Just because an intern is too stupid to read what he’s “pretty-upping” does not make the task menial.

As an intern you should also be actively aware of the type of filing/fixing upping/coffee runs you’re doing, and actively lookout for those processes you can improve. Instead, most interns take the “teach me” approach and wait for things to be handed to them.


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