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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:19 am 
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are **** retarded. Alternatively, they're the most brilliant conspirators in the history of mankind. I'm going to go with the benign option: they're **** idiots who have the outcome projection skills of hook worms.

Now, there's actually some good stuff in there, like a Fed Audit; hell, there's even a few minor regulations I can get behind. However, the thing that sinks the ship? Well, it's special ...

House Approves Sweeping, Post-Crisis Bank Reform
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The mammoth legislative package -- which passed 223-202 with every Republican and 27 Democrats voting against the bill -- includes new fees, leverage limits and other restrictions on 'too-big-to-fail' financial institutions, a requirement to audit the Fed's balance sheet within two years, more say for shareholders on the pay of top executives and new investor protection safeguards.

The bill gave small public banks and corporations many exemptions from a substantial share of the new regulations.

The White House applauded the House action, saying that policies in Washington had played a large part in creating the financial crisis.

"The crisis from which we are still recovering was born not only of failure on Wall Street, but also in Washington," said President Barack Obama. "We have a responsibility to learn from it, and to put in place reforms that will promote sound investment, encourage real competition and innovation, and prevent such a crisis from ever happening again."

Lawmakers narrowly defeated a bipartisan effort to destroy a proposed Consumer Financial Protection Agency and replace it with a weaker council. The proposed consumer agency would supervise and regulate mortgage and credit card products including pay-day lenders and other lenders that have so far escaped regulation.

Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-M.D., the Democrat Majority Leader, spoke in defense of the creation of the consumer agency, arguing without it, bank regulators that failed to identify problems associated with subprime mortgages in the build up to the financial crisis, would stay in control of consumer protection.

"A major failure of the previous administration was regulatory neglect," Hoyer said, seeking to appeal to Democrats in the minutes before the vote on the council.

The package includes new supervision of trillions of dollars in complex derivatives products, new power to file suits against credit raters that have been blamed for overly rosy debt ratings and the creation of a council of regulators that would set capital standards for big banks and monitor systemic risk.

The package also requires big banks to pay into a $150 billion fund that would be used to dismantle a "too-big-to-fail" bank whose collapse otherwise would unsettle the markets. The fees would be used to make payments to creditors counterparties of the failed institution so that they wouldn't fail as well.

Muted support from the Treasury Department

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner commended the House for passing the legislation, but added that he and administration officials look forward to continuing their work with Congress to "strengthen key provisions" as the measure moves towards final passage.

Many provisions in the legislation matched proposals released by the administration earlier this year, but the Treasury Department's proposal would have preferred to set up a system to dismantle a large failed bank by first using taxpayer dollars that would be later recouped by fees assessed on the financial industry. Instead, under the approved legislation, bank regulator collect fees in advance from banks to cover the cost of dismantling an institution.

Bank reform legislation has been introduced in the Senate but is only expected to be approved next year.

Help for homeowners

Responding to concerns from the Congressional Black Caucus, lawmakers approved using $3 billion of bank bailout funds to give out fixed-rate, low-interest loans to unemployed people facing foreclosure and an additional $1 billion to give states financial incentives to buy abandoned or foreclosed homes and prepare them to become rental properties.

But a contentious measure referred to as the cram-down provision, giving bankruptcy judges the authority to modify mortgages to help troubled homeowners avoid foreclosure was narrowly rejected. Bank groups had lobbied heavily against the measure, with community bankers even threatening to pull their support for the entire bill.

"Allowing bankruptcy courts to cram-down principles will only lead to higher interest rates," said Rep. Lamar Smith, R-Texas. "Why should those who have done nothing wrong need to pay that price?"

Bigger fees, more rules

Dozens of other measures were approved, including one that grants the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. the authority to make assessments on large banks and other big institutions to cover shortfalls from the bank bailout program within five years.

"Large financial institutions that caused the credit crisis will be required to make taxpayers whole," said Rep. Gary Peters, D-Mich.

The package also imposed sweeping new recordkeeping, reporting and trading regulations on trillions of dollars in derivatives transactions, with extra-stringent requirements for Wall Street traders who will be required to have much of their trades in the complex securities take place through transparent clearinghouses.

Lawmakers exempted commercial operating company end users from having their transactions go through clearinghouses, which are intermediaries between buyers and sellers.

Small businesses also received an exemption from accounting rules. Lawmakers defeated an effort to void a provision giving small public corporations relief from an audit requirement that dates from the post-Enron Sarbanes-Oxley Act. Over 100 Democrats voted in support of granting small businesses the relief.

Credit rating agencies under the gun

Credit rating agencies also were targeted by lawmakers. A variation of a measure introduced by Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., which would alter the Securities and Exchange Act of 1934 to make it easier for investors to file lawsuits against credit rating agencies, was also included in an amendment approved Thursday night.

The measure would lower the liability standard for credit rating agencies from "knowingly or recklessly," to "gross negligence."

Fed audit in two years

A series of measures introduced by Rep. Michael Burgess, R-Texas, were also approved by the House, including a provision that would require the Government Accountability Office to conduct an audit of the Federal Reserve's monetary policy as well as how much the central bank has lent and will lend to specific banks within two years of when the legislation was approved.

The House Financial Services Committee in November approved a Fed audit bill introduced by Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas., but had set no deadline for when the GAO must act.
If you read the bold section above, which is likely the most important sentence in the entire article, you get some hint of what's going on: they're legalize bad outcome lawsuits for stupid investors.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:32 am 
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Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-M.D., the Democrat Majority Leader, spoke in defense of the creation of the consumer agency, arguing without it, bank regulators that failed to identify problems associated with subprime mortgages in the build up to the financial crisis, would stay in control of consumer protection.


This is pretty ironclad evidence that it is stupidity that drives this.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:35 am 
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There's that, and there's the regulation for large banks that small banks are immune to.. until their better profit margins because of the lesser regulations and lesser fees make them into big ones that they're either A) still exempt from or more likely B) now are bound by. Cute.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:45 am 
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Perhaps these institutions and corporations shouldn't have **** us all in the ear? We might not be here had they not pulled the shenanigans they pulled.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:50 am 
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An informed person wrote:
Perhaps these institutions and corporations Congress shouldn't have **** us all in the ear? We might not be here had they not pulled the shenanigans they pulled.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 am 
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Uh.. Here's the problem with subprime mortgages, dumbasses. They're subprime!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:50 am 
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None of this was really the governments' or the banks' fault. This paragraph from Wikipedia sums up the cause of the crash pretty nicely:

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While housing prices were increasing, consumers were saving less[44] and both borrowing and spending more. Household debt grew from $705 billion at yearend 1974, 60% of disposable personal income, to $7.4 trillion at yearend 2000, and finally to $14.5 trillion in midyear 2008, 134% of disposable personal income.[45] During 2008, the typical USA household owned 13 credit cards, with 40% of households carrying a balance, up from 6% in 1970.[46] Free cash used by consumers from home equity extraction doubled from $627 billion in 2001 to $1,428 billion in 2005 as the housing bubble built, a total of nearly $5 trillion dollars over the period.[47][48][49] U.S. home mortgage debt relative to GDP increased from an average of 46% during the 1990s to 73% during 2008, reaching $10.5 trillion.


We all know that Fannie and Freddie offered subprime loans that were risky. But the private investment industry was doing exactly the same thing and each owned about half the market.

The fact is that neither group forced anyone to sign these ARMs and it's fairly obvious that the majority of these people had no idea what they were getting into, whether it was due to ignorance, stupidity, or fraud. If you want to blame someone for this, look at your neighbor, not the government or the banks.

With regards to the OP, more regulation is the only real option to prevent it from happening again. What else are you going to do? History has clearly shown that people will not bother to read or understand contracts, they want their gratification now and when the **** hits the fan they just walk away. A "conservative" solution would have to be ridiculously hard line and involve things like bringing back debtor's prisons and eliminating bankruptcy. Otherwise you're going to get the same problem again and again, where banks give mortgages to people who really can't afford it and then try every trick and deception up their sleeve to try and sell that debt to anyone they can find before the bottom falls out.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:34 am 
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Xequecal:

Right, so we protect idiots from their own stupidity and give them the option to sue on bad outcomes. And you think this is a good thing?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:42 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
History has clearly shown that people will not bother to read or understand contracts, they want their gratification now and when the **** hits the fan they just walk away.


So make them pay for their stupidity.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:57 am 
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Khross wrote:
Xequecal:

Right, so we protect idiots from their own stupidity and give them the option to sue on bad outcomes. And you think this is a good thing?


First of all, they're not idiots. There is significant peer and cultural pressure to not read contracts in the first place. Everyone assumes that there are government regulations that will protect you from anything truly abusive, and that the representative of the bank or company is bound by ethics standards that prevent him from **** you. If you go to, say, rent a car, and you decide you're actually going to read the entire agreement before signing it, virtually everyone in the building is going to be pissed at you. The other customers for you holding them up, and the employees for not moving along quickly like everyone else.

Second, it is simply not fair to require people to accept this level of responsibility. Aside from the fact that our crappy education system does not prepare them in any way for this challenge, they are at a significant disadvantage at all parts of the transaction. A mortgage contract is totally incomprehensible to the average person. It pretty much has to be, as they have to cover every eventuality.

The next problem is it's being "sold" to you by an on-commission sales rep who will use every high-pressure tactic in the book to get you to sign, which under "personal responsibility" could leave you in poverty or even prison for a lifetime. You want to have your lawyer read it and offer advice before signing? Oh, so you're calling me a liar and a fraud? I thought we knew each other better than that, you know you weren't actually going to be approved, but I pushed for it since you're a special friend of mine, I don't know how long I can keep my boss on board so you better sign it now. Of course when you realize how badly you got **** the guy will deny everything he said and the court will hold you to the letter of the document that you signed without understanding, assuming the rep was being honest. And even if you do catch this rep in actual fraud, he gets what? A few months probation and a suspended license? Not really fair compared to the lifetime poverty or long term prison sentence you're facing when you sign something you can't pay for.

Personal responsibility just doesn't **** work. There's a reason Bank of America is the biggest bank. Selling to people knowledgeable about what you're selling is a niche market. You'll never get big by selling a quality product for a fair price. It's much more profitable to overhype cheap crap and sell it for overinflated prices to people who don't know better. How else do you explain AOL, Budweiser, Best Buy, or McDonalds? Noone who is knowledgeable about the Internet, beer, computers, or food actually patronizes any of these places.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:06 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
You'll never get big by selling a quality product for a fair price.


This is so true, and exactly what is wrong with American capitalism today.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:24 am 
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define "fair" price... because I don't think you are using it correctly.


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Ladas wrote:
define "fair" price... because I don't think you are using it correctly.


I admit that "fair" is pretty subjective, but the fact is most large companies in the US prey on the fact that their customers don't know much about what they're buying so they can be overcharged, sold inferior quality, or both. The vast majority of Bank of America customers could switch to a local bank or credit union and be better off in pretty much every substantive way, but they don't because they don't know better or have been duped by advertisers that small banks are risky or untrustworthy. I mean, AOL was the prime example. They got to charge triple the price for less services simply by dumbing the product down.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:35 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Khross wrote:
Xequecal:

Right, so we protect idiots from their own stupidity and give them the option to sue on bad outcomes. And you think this is a good thing?


First of all, they're not idiots. There is significant peer and cultural pressure to not read contracts in the first place. Everyone assumes that there are government regulations that will protect you from anything truly abusive,

I see. So the solution is to regulate total protection, eliminating all risk. Does this not pose a red flag for you?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Ladas wrote:
define "fair" price... because I don't think you are using it correctly.


I admit that "fair" is pretty subjective, but the fact is most large companies in the US prey on the fact that their customers don't know much about what they're buying so they can be overcharged, sold inferior quality, or both. The vast majority of Bank of America customers could switch to a local bank or credit union and be better off in pretty much every substantive way, but they don't because they don't know better or have been duped by advertisers that small banks are risky or untrustworthy. I mean, AOL was the prime example. They got to charge triple the price for less services simply by dumbing the product down.

Firms can engage in shady behavior if they don't intend on making repeated business. The fact of the matter is, consumers buy a product where they feel the quality meets the price. If they find the quality doesn't meet the price, they turn to a different product and a different firm for that product.

AOL was only charging $23.90 a month at a time when most ISP's were charging in the range of $14.99 - $19.99. It wasn't triple. It wasn't even double. They also charged this amount because they were one of the only providers you could access from pretty much anywhere in the country because they had access numbers all over the friggin place. AOL was only eclipsed because they didn't have an effective broadband strategy. Yes they had a lot of fluff, but they provided a service that was easier for the layman to jump into and feel comfortable. They provided parents easy to use tools to restrict internet access. There was a reason AOL was number 1 for so long and it isn't just because a lot of people were stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
You'll never get big by selling a quality product for a fair price.


This is so true, and exactly what is wrong with American capitalism today.



Oh yes, both of you, please elaborate on this. Define "big" and then explain what prevents a company from becoming "big."


What you guys need to understand is that you're advocating a system in which risk cannot exist, and that under such a system there would be no investment, and that with no investment there would be no commerce.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Ladas wrote:
define "fair" price... because I don't think you are using it correctly.


I admit that "fair" is pretty subjective, but the fact is most large companies in the US prey on the fact that their customers don't know much about what they're buying so they can be overcharged, sold inferior quality, or both. The vast majority of Bank of America customers could switch to a local bank or credit union and be better off in pretty much every substantive way, but they don't because they don't know better or have been duped by advertisers that small banks are risky or untrustworthy. I mean, AOL was the prime example. They got to charge triple the price for less services simply by dumbing the product down.

Firms can engage in shady behavior if they don't intend on making repeated business. The fact of the matter is, consumers buy a product where they feel the quality meets the price. If they find the quality doesn't meet the price, they turn to a different product and a different firm for that product.

AOL was only charging $23.90 a month at a time when most ISP's were charging in the range of $14.99 - $19.99. It wasn't triple. It wasn't even double. They also charged this amount because they were one of the only providers you could access from pretty much anywhere in the country because they had access numbers all over the friggin place. AOL was only eclipsed because they didn't have an effective broadband strategy. Yes they had a lot of fluff, but they provided a service that was easier for the layman to jump into and feel comfortable. They provided parents easy to use tools to restrict internet access. There was a reason AOL was number 1 for so long and it isn't just because a lot of people were stupid.


I'm not saying AOL's customers were stupid, I'm saying they were not knowledgeable about the Internet, so AOL was able to charge them more in exchange for making the Internet much easier to use. There's nothing wrong with that, everyone has their own area of expertise. The problem with this is a libertarian/personal responsibility economy requires you to be very knowledgeable about everything you are buying. If you are not, you give the other guy a blank check to screw you at his leisure. This is especially true for companies that don't really need repeat business from you, once a bank nailed you to the wall one one mortgage they've made so much money off you they don't really care if you never buy anything from them again.

I would bet money that the majority of the people who bought subprime ARMs were totally unaware of just how much that interest rate could go up. They just didn't know enough about the whole process to make a good decision.


Last edited by Xequecal on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Xequecal wrote:
The problem with this is a libertarian/personal responsibility economy requires you to be very knowledgeable about everything you are buying.


False.

That is why agents, proxies, and experts exist.

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DFK! wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The problem with this is a libertarian/personal responsibility economy requires you to be very knowledgeable about everything you are buying.


False.

That is why agents, proxies, and experts exist.


Yes, and businesses will do everything possible to prevent you from consulting with them. Have you ever gone shopping for anything at a place that caters to the lower-classes? Go to a poor area and try to buy a used car. Ask them if you can have a mechanic friend come look at the car before you buy it, or even bring along one of those OBD devices and ask if you can plug it in and run a diagnostic. Chances are, they will outright refuse. They simply do not want smart customers. Much more profitable to sell a lemon worth $1,000 to some guy for $5,000, which is of course financed with a $1,500 down payment into a 29.99% interest loan.


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Xequecal wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The problem with this is a libertarian/personal responsibility economy requires you to be very knowledgeable about everything you are buying.


False.

That is why agents, proxies, and experts exist.


Yes, and businesses will do everything possible to prevent you from consulting with them. Have you ever gone shopping for anything at a place that caters to the lower-classes? Go to a poor area and try to buy a used car. Ask them if you can have a mechanic friend come look at the car before you buy it, or even bring along one of those OBD devices and ask if you can plug it in and run a diagnostic. Chances are, they will outright refuse. They simply do not want smart customers. Much more profitable to sell a lemon worth $1,000 to some guy for $5,000, which is of course financed with a $1,500 down payment into a 29.99% interest loan.
Again, by extension, AOL. When I was working for an Internet provider in the late '90s, I regularly spoke to people who were paying us for Internet access, and then were paying AOL, I think it was $10 a month, to use the AOL software on top of our Internet access. Would AOL have wanted someone sitting their customer down, and explaining that everything they were paying AOL for - web browser, email client, etc - was freely available software? Of course not. AOL fit a niche (a pretty sizable one) of people who just didn't want to become educated about software. They wanted an easy, tidy, familiar bundle, and were willing to pay a premium for it, whereas from another person's perspective, they were just throwing away money. Call it a dummy tax; I think we're all probably willing to pay it in some venue or other.


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Xequecal wrote:
I mean, AOL was the prime example. They got to charge triple the price for less services simply by dumbing the product down.

But dumbing the product down is also known as making it more appealing to the audience they catered to. This isn't about providing a lower quality product, it's about realizing that quality means something completely different to you and to your grandma. Quality for you is raw bandwidth, low latency, and a bunch of free webspace. Quality to your grandma (in the AOL's prime) was an interface that let her use email, send photos, and find some very basic information in easily organized groupings that wasn't intimidating and didn't require a bunch of time investment to learn how to use. That this interface got in the way of your filesharing, was attached to a slow service, and that you cared nothing for their partner sites is completely irrelevant to the high quality product they offered your grandma.

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"There is significant peer and cultural pressure to not read contracts in the first place." - Xeq

Bowing into that pressure is stupid.

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And obviously, the solution to that pressure isn't to foster and demand the social expectation of personal responsibility that would inspire one to read those contracts, but rather, to continue shaping the culture and protecting the people who perpetuate it so that it becomes even more pervasive.

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Seriously, though, the way home purchasing is set up is really, really, bad. You don't even see the full contract until closing. By then you are so heavily invested in the property, that there is serious pressure to just go through with it. Not only that, but there's a bunch of people around, waiting for you to read every damn word, as all your questions, call your bank 18 times, etc. They keep just trying to "sum up" what's on the page, and get you to sign so they can get out of there.

I get that, I do. I felt the pressure, and I am not even close to the "average person" when it comes to this kind of thing. I held everyone there for nearly 4 hours while I worked out the issues I had with the contract. Most people don't have that level of perseverence.

Yes, yes, I know, it's their fault for not being stubborn enough to stick it out. But, it's kind of like setting someone on the edge of a cliff and blaming them when they fall. Yeah, they didn't have to fall, it's their fault, but I'd really like to find a way to not have to put all these folks on the edge of that cliff.


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Xequecal wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The problem with this is a libertarian/personal responsibility economy requires you to be very knowledgeable about everything you are buying.


False.

That is why agents, proxies, and experts exist.


Yes, and businesses will do everything possible to prevent you from consulting with them. Have you ever gone shopping for anything at a place that caters to the lower-classes? Go to a poor area and try to buy a used car. Ask them if you can have a mechanic friend come look at the car before you buy it, or even bring along one of those OBD devices and ask if you can plug it in and run a diagnostic. Chances are, they will outright refuse. They simply do not want smart customers. Much more profitable to sell a lemon worth $1,000 to some guy for $5,000, which is of course financed with a $1,500 down payment into a 29.99% interest loan.


Then don't buy the damn car.

Come on, you're trying to argue based on peer pressure and cultural pressure, and the fact that buisnesses don't want educated customers? The buisness cannot actually stop you from doing research and becoming educated. Do it anyhow. Don't succumb to peer pressure.

It's called being an adult.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


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