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See poll question in OP.
Guilty 30%  30%  [ 7 ]
Not Guilty 52%  52%  [ 12 ]
Depends (please explain) 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
Don't Know 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 23
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 Post subject: Jury Nullification
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Sorry, I suck at writing poll questions of less than 100 characters!

Poll Question:

If, while serving on a jury, you were convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proven its case and the defendant did commit the crime charged, but you believed that either the law creating the crime or the severity of the associated punishment was unjust, would you vote guilty or not guilty?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:34 pm 
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For my own self I would probably vote not guilty if I don't feel the person did something that should be criminal. It's probably a "trick" but that's my answer.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:23 pm 
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I voted "depends".

Basically it would depend on the severity of the punishment in relation to how absurd I thought the law was.

For instance, if I thought the law was dumb, but it was well known and the penalty wasn't too stiff, I'd vote guilty as they did break the law.

However, if the law was absurd and the penalty was also similarly absurd, I would tend to want to vote not guilty. However, it would need to be a pretty extreme case for me to overrule the rule of law.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Not guilty. Jury nullification is a critical power of the people that has been diminished and/or obscured in the last hundred years or so.

This is particularly true of statutory crimes where mens rea is not required. Almost all such laws are ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:06 pm 
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While the true answer is probably "depends" I answered guilty. My duty as a juror is to weigh the evidence and testimony as presented and make my call based on whether I believe the prosecutor has achieved a sustainable proof of guilt. If I believe it has it is my sworn duty to deliver a guilty verdict. If it hasn't then a not guilty verdict is the only one appropriate. It is not the juror's job to make case law. Just to rule on guilt or innocence from the case presented.

When the rubber hits the road, my actions may not match my words here. The situation has too many variables.

This question is why the jurors do not know a case is a three strikes case (with additional penalties if the defendant has multiple violent priors) until it is over.

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Last edited by Micheal on Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Not guilty. Jury nullification is a key check against tyranny.

You're duty as a juror is absolutely to also judge the law Micheal - even though most judges will not only not tell you this but give you bad instruction and bar lawyers who want to give you good instruction.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:57 am 
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Not Guilty. Jury nullification is not only a right, but a duty. If you disagree with the law, you are ethically bound to vote that way on the jury, no matter what the judge says. The law is not sacred in any way to me. My values are.

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 Post subject: Re: Jury Nullification
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:09 am 
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The judiciary, executive and legislative branches of government are invested in the system and can only operate effectively if a jury determines the outcome of a case strictly based on the system's interpretation of the laws affected in the case.

The people, however, look for justice. Screw effectiveness, it needs to take a back seat to justice. "Not god's damned guilty!" If presented with the choice between justice and some legal definition, I pick justice.

Laws can't be written to ensure that justice occurs within an exactly worded framework defining every permutation of possible events. That's why there are juries of peers instead of juries of legal experts. You don't seat juries in picayune cases, you only seat a jury when it's important.

Jury nullification is the final piece of the legal puzzle to ensure "justice is served", not "the law is served".

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 Post subject: Re: Jury Nullification
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Justice is blind, and the Judicial system exists to deliver, in some small measure, justice. Jury Nullification is part of your responsibility to your peers.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:03 pm 
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In Canada, Abortion is only available and legal because of Jury Nullification in the 70's repeatedly refusing to convict Dr. Henry Morgantaler for openly running an abortion clinic against the law. After several attempts on various occasions to bring a conviction, the prosecution got a not-guilty verdict appealed to the supreme court. The court decided, in light of public opinion and a refusal on multiple occasions to convict, that the law was no longer valid and struck it down.

I think, however, Canada and the USA are different places. In Canada, Jury Nullification and public opinion have increased freedoms. Corolinth tells me that in the USA, Jury Nullification is more likely to do things like overturn desegregation.

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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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 Post subject: Re: Jury Nullification
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:54 pm 
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For those who need some references as to the juries DUTY to review the law in the United States.

From the American Dictionary of the English language 1828:
Quote:
JU'RY, n. [L. juro, to swear.] A number of freeholders, selected in the manner prescribed by law, empaneled and sworn to inquire into and try any matter of fact, and to declare the truth on the evidence given them in the case. Grand juries consist usually of twenty four freeholders at least, and are summoned to try matters alleged in indictments. Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions. The decision of a petty jury is called a verdict.


4th Circuit Court of Appeals, United States v. Moylan, 1969:
Quote:
If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence...If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision.


Georgia v. Brailsford (1794):
Quote:
In this case, the first Chief Justice, John Jay, wrote: "It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision… you [juries] have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy"


UNITED STATES v. DOUGHERTY (1972)
Quote:
They say that the jury has a well-recognized prerogative to disregard the instructions of the court even as to matters of law...

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 Post subject: Re: Jury Nullification
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:57 pm 
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This is the separation between and what appears to be law.


16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:
Quote:
The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:
The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.
Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....
A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.
No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:32 pm 
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We went over that passage in a different thread. The courts have been far from consitant on that stance, which presumes knowledge of unConstitutionality anyhow.

In any case, a law need not be unConstitutional to be unjust. The Constitution had considerable injustice written into it at the time of its origin.

Also, a law need not be unjust in general to be unjust in a specific case. Situations like that are the best place for jury nullification to be exercised.

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