The Glade 4.0

That's not really politicization, though; it's just trial strategy.

Disagree that in this case those are different things. For this trial (and in often general) they're synonyms.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I know it's poor form to ask a bunch of questions given that I haven't responded to some earlier posts from others yet, but there are a few hypos I'd like to throw out there before the real verdict comes down, particularly for those who are strongly inclined to acquit Zimmerman as things actually stand. Anyway, here are the hypos:

First Hypo: Imagine that everything happened exactly the same way, except that Martin initiated violence because he mistakenly, but reasonably believed Zimmerman was going for a gun in response to the initial verbal confrontation.

Second Hypo: Imagine that everything happened exactly the same way, except that Martin initiated violence because Zimmerman actually was going for a gun in response to the initial verbal confrontation.

Third Hypo: Imagine that everything happened exactly the same way, except that Martin initiated violence because, following the initial verbal confrontation, Martin tried to leave and Zimmerman blocked his path and ordered him not to move.

Fourth Hypo: Imagine that everything happened exactly the same way, except that Martin initiated violence because, following the initial verbal confrontation, Martin tried to leave and Zimmerman blocked his path, drew his gun and ordered him not to move.

Fifth Hypo: Imagine that everything happened exactly the same way, except that Martin initiated violence because, following the initial verbal confrontation, Martin tried to leave and Zimmerman grabbed his arm and ordered him not to move.

In each of those hypos, would the change in the facts affect your view of Zimmerman's culpability? If so, how and why?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... von-Bieber

I disagree I think more people would have lined up to take that shot!

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

That pic makes me want to punch that little **** right in the face.

WEAR A GODDAMN HAT THAT FITS YOU USELESS PIECE OF ****!!!

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Holy shitsnacks!

This kid's gonna get steamrolled pretty hard.

Oh god I hope he does. Ignorant little ****.

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Holy shitsnacks!

What a dumbass.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

He deleted it and went off on a string of like 8 angry rant replies to other people and now his account is suspended.

THUG LIFE

Looked active to me just a minute ago when I called him an ignorant little tool.

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Holy shitsnacks!

@RD: I'll field them, but only from the perspective of Guilt/Innocence on each charge, not culpability. If you specifically want culpability, we can get to that afterward. All responses are based upon the circumstances following the hypothetical but the evidence remaining the same.



No change. Martin still initiated violence. Zimmerman still feared for his life "or great bodily harm" (per jury instructions re: Florida law).



No change because even if this was the case, Martin initiated violence and insufficient proof exists to prove Zimmerman was drawing a weapon first.



No change because Martin initiated violence and insufficient proof exists to prove Zimmerman had aggravated the situation.



Same as Third Hypo above.



No change because grabbing someone with that level of force is likely to leave signs of a conflict, which were not present on Martin's body. Had their been evidence (this being a conflict), potentially guilty manslaughter.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Also, CNN radio on XM's coverage of this case is really pissing me off. Journalists should point out incorrect statements when people make them, they never do that.

CNN is such a not-journalism entity it's just sad. They exist for pure ratings and entertainment functions at this point. **** asinine.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Bah, must have been temporary or just down from all the traffic he was getting.

Indeed:

Horseshit. It really amazes me sometimes how willing you are to just make **** up. HALF? MAYBE a third, tops. But you don't know. You're talking out of your ***.

What on earth has the poop ship got to do with the Zimmerman trial?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

It was a CNN sucks montage.

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Holy shitsnacks!

In this case, it brings up the question of how Martin knows about the gun. Let's say Zimmerman is unaware that Martin has seen it. This changes nothing because there is no way Zimmerman can know what Martin percieves, nor is there any reason he should allow himself to be attacked just because the other person's mistaken belief was reasonable.



That depends on what happened in the initial verbal confrontation, and why Zimmerman is going for the gun. This might not be discernable at all in terms of exactly what happened in what order. If it is, however, and Martin made some sort of threat, Zimmerman would still be justified; if it was something more on the order of simply arguing, that would be different.



In all three of these cases, Zimmerman is attempting to stop Martin from leaving, and so initiating physical confrontation. Depending on how the confrontation went it is possible he would be within his rights to hold Martin for police, but highly unlikely. In all cases, however, Martin would still go well beyond the reasonable use of force when he gets Zimmerman down and then starts slamming his head into the sidewalk.

This brings up another hypothetical. Would we be so concerned with Zimmerman's actions if he had not had a gun, and had struggled with Martin until police arrived? Would people be so eager to defend Martin if he were beating an unarmed man?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

my sympathy for the dead dude ended as soon as Zimmerman headed back to his car and he went and attacked Zimmerman

but my sympathy for Zimmerman went away as soon as the cops told him "you do not need to follow him"

neither of these dudes is a plucky hero, neither is a martyr to his cause or people.... they were both jackasses.

GZ was overly paranoid and TM was a douchy ****
but had martin just gone home, called the cops, and they went "thank you for the report sir."
it would have all been done with
then when the cops rolled up and saw GZ was looking for TM, they would have told his *** to go home because TM called the cops on HIM

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

most of the people who are eager to defend martin, don't care if he was armed or not.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Is there reasonable evidence any of those things happened? If not, what does it matter?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Maybe he'll get put in jail for 5 months with a $500,000 bail for making terroristic threats.

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Speaking for myself, I haven't been defending Martin so much as concerned with disciplining Zimmerman if he crossed the line.

Also, Zimmerman being armed has a major influence in the entire situation. Weapons are an escalator, and if you're in a situation where you want to win (regardless of if you're right or wrong) then if you see a weapon you automatically have to ratchet up your level of aggression to have a prayer of succeeding.

Yes, if you know the weapon is present. From all accounts, however, Martin was already on top of Zimmerman (a position of overwhelming advantage) when he spotted the gun.

In any case, that "we" was aimed more at the nation in general, not at the Glade.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Nice surprise, scrolling down the Gawker homepage and boom, dead Trayvon picture. Real classy.