The Glade 4.0

There's a bit of a evidence for hypo 1 - namely, that Zimmerman stated in his walkthrough with the police that he was reaching for the cell phone in his pocket (and he gestured to the same side his gun was on) when Martin stepped in and punched him. That's not my point though. I'm just posing the hypotheticals to help me figure out where the line is for people. I'm saying, "Assuming these hypothetical facts were true, what do you think?"

If GZ is the first one to be hands on, interfere with TMs freedom of movement, or draw his weapon, then GZ becomes the initiator of violence. As a defender against an armed initiator of violence TM has a lot more leeway in my eyes as far as his acceptable force level. So that's 2-5.

As far as Martin thought GZ went for the gun, I'm not sure you could even prove that in any way that should have weight on the jury. If you could, then I honestly don't know. It just sounds too much like reaching.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

There's also the question with that hypothetical of - did Martin actually see the gun and think Zimmerman was reaching for it, or did he just assume there was a gun, and was unknowingly correct?

This is one of the problems with hypotheticals - they tend to have a dearth of information, and they tend to gloss over the different perspectives of the parties at different times in favor of omniscient 3rd-person viewpoints that are inapplicable to real events.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Gawker = Click Whores

I refuse to partake

I have to admit, I almost posted that photo here (though I would have spoilered it out of consideration for those who don't want to see that kind of thing). I firmly believe that images of horrible things are crucial to fully grappling with those things. Simply discussing them without looking at the hard, horrifying reality is inadequate and biases one's view toward a sanitized, unrealistic perspective.

There's some truth in that. On the other hand, there's also the fact that people who are seeing horrible images, but don't have to confront the reality of the circumstances themselves have a tendency to make emotional, irrational judgements about what should be done to avoid such things, even if that would lead to worse (if less graphic) consequences.

One remembers "blood in the streets of Baghdad" A jihadist sniper's blood looks about the same as everyone else's and if he's laying there with most of his head missing, that image is going to be pretty disturbing. Then, you're going to have people that come up with impractical reasons not to ever shoot anyone again. These people, notably, have no responsibility for dealing with such situations in even the most indirect way, have no intention of ever even attempting to get any, and yet have no shortage of emotion-driven hystionics to direct at those who do. While not everyone can be involved in such situations, and that doesn't mean people shouldn't express their opinions, people who make demands of those who do based on nothing more than their personal sense of horror are selfish in the extreme and ought not to be taken seriously. Policy should not be a matter of comforting those who cry or barf easily.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Looking like it may be a "compromise" decision. Jury asking for more instructions on manslaughter.

Gotta say, despite my abstract arguments in this thread, I find myself really hoping he gets an acquittal. There's no way to justify a murder conviction, and adding the manslaughter charge at the end of the trial is bullshit. To be honest, I don't really think the actual evidence is sufficient to get past reasonable doubt even on manslaughter given how the Florida statute's drafted. Just resolution to this, I think, is that he gets acquitted on the criminal charges and then gets reamed in a civil suit for wrongful death.

I don't think the manslaughter charge clarification really means anything other than that he is likely not going to be convicted of 2nd degree murder. Manslaughter is a rather more difficult legal charge to understand since it requires a more sophisticated understanding of the concept of a "Reasonable person" and ability to judge what the circumstances were at the time. The compromise decision is a possibility, but I wouldn't place money either way.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The more contact this jury has with this judge, the more likely Zimmerman is going to jail. In fact, I've got money on Zimmerman doing time.

**ninja-edit** There's no literal bet; I'm just saying I see no outcome except guilty of manslaughter or 2nd Degree Murder after all the tainting going on.

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Sadly, I have been watching HLNs verdict watch for the better part of this evening.

So as of the typing of this, a verdict is in and they are waiting to assemble everyone in the courtroom to read it.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Not guilty.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Wow, that's totally not what I expected. I think bad **** is about to happen.

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It was the right decision. But yeah...**** is about to go down.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

I actually agree with you for once.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Prepare for the apocolypse, for the "white man" was found not guilty of second degree murder of a "black, 12 year old, innocent child"!

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"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"

Huh...Guess I missed the fury on talk radio on my way to work due to having the Tigers on.

I honestly don't believe this.

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Raell Kromwell

This kid has been arrested.

Link

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I can't say I'm surprised. Then again, I wouldn't have been surprised with manslaughter either. Still it made something to watch when there's nothing to do but drink beer in a hotel.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So... does anyone know if Zimmerman is dead yet?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

@MikeDrucker: Please remember, violence against Zimmerman isn't the answer. Just follow him in your car and make sure he's not doing anything suspicious.

Well, he looked ok on the news an hour ago.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I am betting no. Nothing goes down.

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Is it odd to release a verdict on a Saturday? Also I wonder if the lawsuits against GZ will be incoming now?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"