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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:21 am 
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The Constitution prevents double jeopardy for the same offense. Civil wrongs, under which we have wrongful death and other suits are not offenses. Trials for more than one offense resulting from the same circumstance are also not double jeopardy; it protects against retrying for offenses, not circumstances.

It is true that, with more than one set of courts and civil/criminal crossover, and federal vs. state statutes, that people can sort of get re-tried over and over, but it isn't a problem of this being unConstitutional; it's a problem of jurisprudence and of legislatures with too many lawyers that do not want to close down avenues for litigation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:37 am 
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George Zimmerman was found guilty of no crime and acquitted of all charges. Any Civil Rights prosecution will have to overcome that hurdle and prove him guilty of behavior and circumstances for his he was already acquitted; that is absolutely double jeopardy. The same thing applied to Mark Furman and the rest of the Rodney King officers. Federal prosecutors had to prove they committed criminal actions for which a court had previously acquitted them. I am not sure when this changed, but insofar as double jeopardy was largely drawn from Common Law, any further preceding that requires guilt for the acquitted actions is double jeopardy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:17 am 
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This whole situation is so far blown out or proportion at this point, it seems nothing to throw in a little Constitutional trampling while they're at it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:18 am 
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George Zimmerman was, indeed, found guilty of no charges - of the things he was charged with. If, however, the state wanted to come back and charge him with parking his truck illegally when he got out of it (assuming he did so, and disregarding issues like time restrictions for the sake of the example) that would not be double jeopardy just because it all arose from the same set of circumstances.

The fact that prosecutors had to prove a certain set of facts existed that was not sufficient to convict the officers of excessive use of force (or whatever the name of the actual charge was) does not mean it is double jeopardy to re-establish that same set of facts in regard to a separate offense, so long as that offense is not a lesser included version of the original offense.

Common law, moreover, does not govern. There is no Federal common law, and in any case, common law tradition is only used when not over-ridden by subsequent legislation or jurisprudence.

I agree with you that this state of affairs is unfair, immoral, and probably contrary in some respects to the spirit of double jeopardy, and ought to be remedied, but the interpretation of double jeopardy you are presenting is not the one that actually is in use right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:32 am 
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parking his truck illegally has nothing to do with killing trayvon or violating his right to life which more or less revolve around the exact same set of facts.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
parking his truck illegally has nothing to do with killing trayvon or violating his right to life which more or less revolve around the exact same set of facts.

No, DE listed that as an example. With that said my understanding is that he can be charged with violating Martin's Civil Rights if they argue that George was following him because he was black. This does not mean GZ will face Murder or Manslaughter charges again, it means he will face Civil Rights charges which is a wholly separate crime.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:45 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
parking his truck illegally has nothing to do with killing trayvon or violating his right to life which more or less revolve around the exact same set of facts.

No, DE listed that as an example. With that said my understanding is that he can be charged with violating Martin's Civil Rights if they argue that George was following him because he was black. This does not mean GZ will face Murder or Manslaughter charges again, it means he will face Civil Rights charges which is a wholly separate crime.


Precisely.

Khross is making an excellent point in regard to the fact that he would, essentially, get retried for the same set of facts on a different charge, in a different court. In fact if there were a Federal murder charge that is applicable to this, the argument could be made that since the Federal charge of murder (or manslaughter) is necessarily a different offense from the state one, trying him in Federal court would not be double jeopardy either. It would not be all that different from a civil rights violation, either, in actual effect - he would face another trial, associated expense, distress, disruption to his life, and of course the risk of guilt and penalty.

I don't know that there is an applicable federal civil rights charge he can be tried under in the first place, since he is a private citizen, but assuming he can, the problem with double jeopardy is that the letter of the law in that clause is insufficient to the spirit. People shouldn't be able to sue and issue charges over and over on the same incident, but unfortunately they can.

Civil suits are even worse in this regard because of the lower burden of proof. Zimmerman at least has the possibility of immunity from civil suit under Stand Your Ground, which would also force the Martins to pay his legal fees if he won that hearing. In that regard, he's luckier than most.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:47 am 
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The ability seek alternate charges or redress for the same circumstance is a product of the last 40-50 years of juridical history in the United States. There's also the fact that Florida changed their Manslaughter standards earlier this year in an attempt to make the compromise verdict unavoidable, as I understand it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:39 am 
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http://www.reddit.com/r/libertarianmeme ... ng/cb3439h

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It was a cold, windy night as a young and innocent Trayvon Martin exited his favorite WalMart® armed only with a bag of Skittles™. Ahh, Skittles™: Trayvon remembered the long summer nights he used to spend munching on them with his grandmother before she was lynced and raped by their local KKK chapter.

As the young Trayvon gleefully frolicked across the street (looking both ways before crossing) in his safe multiracial neighborhood, sinister forces were at work; A 'George Zimmerman' drunkenly ventured out of his KKK seminar donned in his all-white robes and hood, bloodstained by racial crimes. Zimmerman, the battle-hardened racist he was, quickly spotted the vulnerable Trayvon and hid stealthily in the bushes, waiting for the right moment to pounce.

No sooner had the adolescent Trayvon step foot on his home's block then Zimmerman had cut him off with an evil grin. "What are you doing here?!" the money shouted before letting off a slew of racially insensitive jeers. "W-why I was just bringing home some medicine for my sick mother, sir." Trayvon timidly replied. "Liar!" Zimmerman angrily shouted as he charged at him, raising a burning cross in one hand and a deadly pistol in another.

Suddenly, George's foot caught a loose piece of concrete and he tumbled, landing on the back of head with a crack. "Are you okay, mister?" Trayvon feebly whispered, offering the half-empty bag of candy. Zimmerman pulled his trigger, ripping wide holes in Trayvon Martin's innocent chest with deadly hollow points. The Skittles™ fell to the sidewalk with a crinkle, and that was the end of Trayvon Martin.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Khross wrote:
The ability seek alternate charges or redress for the same circumstance is a product of the last 40-50 years of juridical history in the United States. There's also the fact that Florida changed their Manslaughter standards earlier this year in an attempt to make the compromise verdict unavoidable, as I understand it.


How would that be relevant to this case? They'd still have had to use the standard that was in place at the time the crime happened.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Khross wrote:
The ability seek alternate charges or redress for the same circumstance is a product of the last 40-50 years of juridical history in the United States. There's also the fact that Florida changed their Manslaughter standards earlier this year in an attempt to make the compromise verdict unavoidable, as I understand it.
How would that be relevant to this case? They'd still have had to use the standard that was in place at the time the crime happened.
Not since RICO.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Seems the beatings are starting...

A jogger in MS was abducted by three black men and beaten and a Hispanic guy in Baltimore was chased by a gang of people and beaten.

The Baltimore one is here

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... 5359.story

But the link for the MS one seems to be broken(unless it was pulled).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:40 pm 
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I wonder if stuff like that wasn't gonna happen anyway and it's convenient for the perps to blame it on the trial because it will make their 15 minutes brighter. People with excrement like that in their hearts don't need a trial to act that way.

Meanwhile how many Treyvons were killed in Chicago while the jury deliberated.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:36 am 
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The number of Trayvons who were killed in this city or that, which get swept under a rug because it was just another thug, are the reason why this had to be a trial. We do not like to admit it, because hey, those libs got a black president elected, didn't they? but the criminal justice system still assumes a black is guilty based solely on the color of his or her skin. There had to be a judge involved. This is what they are for, and this was the appropriate time to use one. Evidence needed to be presented, and a jury needed to hand over a verdict.

All of that happened. George Zimmerman was exonerated. I'm not going to lose any sleep over twelve people deciding he's no murderer. Worse people have walked for worse reasons.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:32 am 
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6 people. But still.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:38 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Seems the beatings are starting...

A jogger in MS was abducted by three black men and beaten and a Hispanic guy in Baltimore was chased by a gang of people and beaten.

The Baltimore one is here

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... 5359.story

But the link for the MS one seems to be broken(unless it was pulled).


Well, at least in Baltimore they got the target's race right: hispanic and not caucasian.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:53 am 
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Also (sorry for post spam), I have to say I'm getting really, really tired of the white liberal retards out there getting upset over this verdict. Specifically some of the things they're saying. Just full of hate and stupidity.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:27 am 
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Yeah, I'm not sure what's more annoying, the unwillingness of so many blacks to accept the verdict, or the faux unity with the extreme liberal supporters.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:32 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure what's more annoying, the unwillingness of so many blacks to accept the verdict, or the faux unity with the extreme liberal supporters.


Well for me, it's more along the lines of the fact that the liberal folks out there on the interweb (Facebook, news sources, etc.) just can't seem to realize that they a) don't have the facts right and b) even if they did have the facts right, the jury decided otherwise.

Oh well, at this point. It's just ridiculously annoying is all. As though no other news exists.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:38 am 
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You're talking about people that primarily rely on their own intuition for their worldview. Since it intuitively seems like if an unarmed teenager is killed by a grown man with a gun, it must be murder, then as far as these folks are concerned it necessarily is murder. They may be able to intellectually grasp the possibility of exceptions in the abstract, but when it comes to a specific case, the images of specific people and the need to fit it into the worldview are overpowering.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:49 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
You're talking about people that primarily rely on their own intuition for their worldview. Since it intuitively seems like if an unarmed teenager is killed by a grown man with a gun, it must be murder, then as far as these folks are concerned it necessarily is murder. They may be able to intellectually grasp the possibility of exceptions in the abstract, but when it comes to a specific case, the images of specific people and the need to fit it into the worldview are overpowering.


Oh, definitely. I understand how they approach the world. It's still retarded.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 am 
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Here's an example, taken from Facebook:

A lack of critical thinking wrote:
Interesting thought in a piece I just read, about a common argument we *didn't* hear. Nowhere during the Trayvon Martin case did the NRA step in to suggest that Trayvon would be alive today if he'd only had a gun.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:49 am 
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Because I don't want to hear your side of the story and not buying your book isn't good enough!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/news/twitte ... 26787.html

Quote:
Twitter user swiftly sabotages Zimmerman juror’s book deal

A Twitter user who launched a social media campaign to stop a juror in the George Zimmerman case from getting a book deal has succeeded in her effort—within six hours.

On Monday, Juror B37, one of six female jurors who made the controversial decision to acquit Zimmerman in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, told Anderson Cooper that she had signed with a literary agent to shop a tell-all book about her experience during the three-week, televised trial.

The agent, Sharlene Martin, told Yahoo News that the juror reached out to her on the advice of a producer from a morning show and that the juror has said she was planning to publish the book anonymously “given the sensitivity of the verdict and the outpouring of mixed reactions by the American public.”

Then came the social media campaign.

Genie Lauren, whose Twitter handle is @MoreAndAgain, tweeted out the agent's contact information, urging fellow users to flood the agency with calls and emails "to stop the book deal from coming to fruition," Uproxx.com reports.

"Hey, @sharlenemartin, please drop juror B37," Lauren wrote. "Do not help the person who let a murderer get away profit from this tragedy."

"Only thing I can think to do is flood Sharlene Martin's phone, email, and snail mail, w/ requests that she drop juror B37," she continued.

Lauren then launched a Change.org petition asking the agency to drop the unnamed juror:

After murdering Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman was acquitted, even though juror B37 admitted (in a CNN interview) that Zimmerman "went too far", and didn't "stop at the limitations he should've stopped at". Now that very juror, who allowed Trayvon Martin's killer to get away, is writing a book. Please don't allow this person to profit off of the injustice that they've served to the American public. We deserve better. Trayvon Martin's family deserves better.

The petition quickly reached 1,000 signatures, and the Martin Literary Agency released a statement late Monday:

After careful consideration regarding the proposed book project with Zimmerman Juror B37, I have decided to rescind my offer of representation in the exploration of a book based upon this case.

Juror B37 then announced she was abandoning the book idea:

I realize it was necessary for our jury to be sequestered in order to protect our verdict from unfair outside influence, but that isolation shielded me from the depth of pain that exists among the general public over every aspect of this case. The potential book was always intended to be a respectful observation of the trial from my and my husband’s perspectives solely and it was to be an observation that our "system" of justice can get so complicated that it creates a conflict with our "spirit" of justice. Now that I am returned to my family and to society in general, I have realized that the best direction for me to go is away from writing any sort of book and return instead to my life as it was before I was called to sit on this jury.

Roots' drummer Guestlove applauded Lauren's efforts, tweeting a thank you note to his 2.6 million followers

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:08 am 
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They should just re-offer the deal in a year. Idiots who respond like that will have forgotten about it by then.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:25 am 
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No, it will still be squelched. Anything the jurors would have to tell are details that which convinced them that George Zimmerman acted in self defense, and therefore are details that absolutely must not be allowed to become public knowledge.

That is the other reason why this trial had to occur. Now that George Zimmerman has been exonerated, there must be an official record of all details which exonerated him. He needs that legal protection against people who can't let it be over.

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