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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Relevant:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Those are probably all misunderstandings. Unlawful raids never happen.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:29 am 
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shuyung wrote:
This "can" and "can't" distinction you're making, it is nonsense.

If your home is invaded, and you shoot the invader(s), and those invaders were police, and they were acting unlawfully, there is no legal penalty accruing to you.
If your home is invaded, and you shoot the invader(s), and those invaders were police, and they were acting lawfully, there is no material increase to the crap you're in.
Either way, there's nothing stopping you, other than your natural inclination to either shoot or not shoot an invader.


I said "law abiding" so there really is a distinction. If it's illegal to shoot at the police then a law-abiding individual, by definition, can't do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:54 am 
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DFK! wrote:


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Description: On October 15, 1998, deputies in Washington County, Ohio make an unannounced nighttime raid on the home of 57 year-old Delbert Bonar, a retired school janitor. Police have a search warrant to look for stolen weapons and marijuana in possession of Albert Bonar, Delbert's son. Police claim that upon their entering the home, the elder Bonar grabbed a shotgun and ignored orders to release it. Albert Bonar's wife disputes this account. Raiding officer then shoot Delbert Bonar eight times, killing him. Bonar's shotgun was later found not to be loaded. Police found a small amount of marijuana in the house. Though the Washington County Sheriff insisted his men acted properly, the county settled paid the Bonar family a $450,000 settlement in 2003. Sources: Jim Phillips, "Relatives of Belpre Man Shot to Death by Cops Settle Lawsuit for $450,000," Athens News, June 12, 2003.


Right place, warrant for lawful entry, police identified themselves. Your site seems to include a lot of stuff that doesn't match the discussion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:33 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
DFK! wrote:


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Description: On October 15, 1998, deputies in Washington County, Ohio make an unannounced nighttime raid on the home of 57 year-old Delbert Bonar, a retired school janitor. Police have a search warrant to look for stolen weapons and marijuana in possession of Albert Bonar, Delbert's son. Police claim that upon their entering the home, the elder Bonar grabbed a shotgun and ignored orders to release it. Albert Bonar's wife disputes this account. Raiding officer then shoot Delbert Bonar eight times, killing him. Bonar's shotgun was later found not to be loaded. Police found a small amount of marijuana in the house. Though the Washington County Sheriff insisted his men acted properly, the county settled paid the Bonar family a $450,000 settlement in 2003. Sources: Jim Phillips, "Relatives of Belpre Man Shot to Death by Cops Settle Lawsuit for $450,000," Athens News, June 12, 2003.


Right place, warrant for lawful entry, police identified themselves. Your site seems to include a lot of stuff that doesn't match the discussion.


Probably so, as that map is more broad and focused on problematic "paramilitary-style" police raids. That doesn't change that it has lots of relevant data points to this discussion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:27 am 
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It has relevant data points insofar as "paramilitary" raids occur; we already knew that. The data, however, is unanalyzed, unprocessed, raw anecdotes and so isn't terribly helpful.

Lenas's snark to the contrary, not everything is a misunderstanding; sometimes raids go wrong and someone gets hurt or killed who should not have been. However, "other forms of excess" or whatever the blue tab is called is suspect; it simply presumes excess because the site says so, and "police officer shot" doesn't really say much either. Serving warrants is always dangerous, raid-style or not. I'm also suspicious of their definitions of "innocent", if they're including people who point unloaded shotguns, or assuming innocence just because the police department settled. No one is clairvoyant enough to know that a pointed weapon is unloaded, and settlements are not necessarily an admission of wrongdoing.

This focus on "paramilitary" activity is also not very accurate; all police activities are "paramilitary" because police are paramilitary by nature. They have rank structures, chains of command, and other military-style methods of organization and management. The similarities between police raids and raids by the military conducting urban and asymmetrical combat are largely superficial matters of appearance, and similar pieces of equipment because small arms are small arms. If anything, the military has been taking a cue from the police with the overall lightening of forces, over a decade of focus on irregular enemies, and need to keep casualties and damage low. It has not been good for the military; skills for major combat are significantly degraded, and in the case of the Navy, procurement has even shifted to buying utterly pointless ships to serve in a war that's basically over.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Recent, relevant article that happened here in Tucson.

Domestic tranquility in Pima County shattered by 9-1-1 call
http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2013 ... -1-1-call/

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A Pima County couple was awakened from a sound sleep one night this past spring. The couple had gone to bed at 9:00 p.m. since they work hard and their day starts early.

Loud pounding on the metal portion of their home and bright flashing red lights signaled something was amiss in the neighborhood. They never imagined that they were at the center of that something.

Their neighbor had been asked to leave his previous residence, a trailer park in Pima County, after calling 9-1-1 several times in a matter of a few weeks reporting his “neighbors” for various and sundry issues.

Unfortunately, the 9-1-1 caller has issues, and the Pima County Sheriff’s Department personnel knew it. However, that knowledge did not seem to be factored into the treatment of the peacefully sleeping couple in May 2013.

He is a commercial air conditioning project manager for a local company and his wife is a licensed manager of a home care service for seniors.

Not quite awake, he looked out the window and saw several Pima County Sheriff vehicles outside his home. As someone who has never had to fear law enforcement, he opened the front door.

Immediately, he was ordered to get his hands in the air, by a sheriff deputy aiming an assault rifle at him, from about 20 feet. He was ordered out of the house and his wife, who was behind him, was given the same instructions.

She modestly asked if she could put on a robe, they were both in their underwear and barefoot. “No,” the deputies shouted. They were then asked if anyone else was in the house, they both said “no.”

They were handcuffed by another deputy and led out to the street in front of the house through the gravel parking area, in their bare feet and underwear – about 25 yards.

Their minds raced, they could not imagine why and how this was happening to them.

There were a total of 12 Deputies, all armed in vests with at least 3 of them aiming weapons at them the entire time. While they were out in the street the PCSD spent 15 minutes searching the house without a warrant or their asking permission.

That whole time, one deputy’s obvious adrenaline overload, terrified them. He was so nervous they feared that almost anything could cause him to pull the trigger on his service weapon.

They still had not been told why they were being treated as dangerous criminals, handcuffed, barefoot in their underwear and detained at gunpoint. One deputy took personal information while the house was being searched. By now several neighbors came out to watch what was going on.

Their new neighborly neighbor came out of his home to tell the deputies that he was the one who had called in the domestic violence report. They advised him that they had not found any evidence of any domestic violence.

Well then he told them, it must have been another neighbor who was engaged in domestic violence. Maybe it was the other house next door.

The couple remained outside, handcuffed, partially dressed and humiliated while the same group of officers, sworn to protect the peace, created chaos and confusion in a raid on their other neighbors.

Again no evidence of domestic violence was found there either.

Only after completing the raid and search of the neighbors house, they were un-cuffed and told they could go home. Before they went back to their home, they asked to speak to a supervisor.

The supervisor was not on the scene.

They came back outside after dressing. Finally a squad car pulled up, it was the sergeant.

He didn’t offer an apology, just admitted that mistakes were made and that he could “handle” the situation or they could file a complaint with Internal Affairs.

The concerned neighbor, whose call had prompted the raid in May, had made 5 other calls to 9-1-1 in the 3 weeks prior to that night. During 2 of these calls, deputies had questioned the man’s mental state. During one incident one deputy had reported that the man had told him he was hearing voices, so this neighbor was transported to a mental health facility by the Pima County Sheriff Dept for evaluation.

This neighbor had only lived across the street from them for 2 days at the time he called 9-1-1; they had no contact with this neighbor before the terrifying raid.

They had called the Pima County Sheriff’s Department only three times in the 22 years at their address. They called once to report a case of domestic violence for parental abuse, another for a habitual speeder racing his motorcycle up and down their road, and once for a theft of work tools valued at over $1000. For the theft of the tools, the source of his livelihood, PCSD did not even come to investigate or take a report.

She doesn’t sleep through the night any more. She wakes up over and over again checking the locks on the door, and wondering if she will be the subject of humiliation again. He worries about her. The violent intrusion of their domestic life, based on delusional caller reporting Domestic Violence, will haunt them for years to come…

A review of reports written by PCSD deputies show that the 9-1-1- caller was or should have been known by the Department as someone who frequently filed baseless reports, and hears “voices.” Shortly before assaulting the fundamental rights of Pima County residents on that night in May, Sheriff’s Department personnel had ascertained that the 9-1-1 caller had been considered unstable.

In a report filed approximately two weeks before the residents were awakened from their sound sleep, a PCDS deputy filed a report in which he noted that the 9-1-1 caller, had an appointment with La Frontera for “hearing voices.” That report was filed in response to the 9-1-1 caller’s landlord who was concerned for his tenants who had been harassed by the 9-1-1- caller’s countless accusations resulting in many 9-1-1 calls and law enforcement visits. The deputy wrote, “I gave him information about obtaining an order of protection or injunction against harassment, filing eviction paperwork, and filing petitions with the Southern Arizona Mental Health Center.”

Still with long guns, one AR-15, and semiautomatic pistols the deputies came upon their 1/2 acre of private property and disturbed their domestic tranquility. Fear and questions remain:

• Why was this man not questioned before long guns were drawn on law abiding citizens?

• Why was this man’s name not flagged by the Sheriff’s dept or 9-1-1, as someone with a history of making false reports?

• What gave the PCSD the right to invade and search their home and that of their neighbor without permission or a warrant?

• Why didn’t the deputies just ask if anything was wrong or if there was any trouble?

• With little immediate evidence that anyone was in imminent danger, what gave the deputies the right to handcuff them and have them stand outside in public in their under wear?

• What gave them the right to shatter their domestic tranquility before determining whether the person reporting the “crime” needed tranquilizers?

• Who else has been a victim of a Sheriff’s Office that is out of control?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:25 pm 
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I think, rather than pitting armed citizens against better armed and more numerous police, it would be more effective to stop the police from performing all these SWAT style raids for offenses that don't warrant them. You'll have a lot less dead people on both sides, that way.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Unfortunately, we've tried that and it didn't work. So now it's time for police officers to be legally shot while violating the law.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:48 pm 
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These threads always make me feel very

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Unfortunately, we've tried that and it didn't work. So now it's time for police officers to be legally shot while violating the law.


Unfortunately, we haven't tried that at all, and this is a lot more likely to result in the citizen getting shot rather than the cop. This is why DFK! and I are agreeing that getting rid of no-knock raids is a good idea.

Furthermore, if you think it's necessarily ok to shoot cops just because they're violating the law, then the same goes for citizens - because police are citizens.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, if you think it's necessarily ok to shoot cops just because they're violating the law, then the same goes for citizens - because police are citizens.


It's not only because they are "violating the law." No one is going to shoot a cop for jay-walking. You have the right to shoot anyone else that illegally enters your house, cops should be no different. That's a very important distinction.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, if you think it's necessarily ok to shoot cops just because they're violating the law, then the same goes for citizens - because police are citizens.


It's not only because they are "violating the law." No one is going to shoot a cop for jay-walking. You have the right to shoot anyone else that illegally enters your house, cops should be no different. That's a very important distinction.


A distinction notably absent from the post I was replying to.

Furthermore, when it's anyone else, you can pretty much be certain if they are there legally or not because if they were, you'd have invited them. With the police, there are these things called "warrants". Again, while highly unlikely a person who was doing something serious enough to merit a warrant where the normal attempt to knock and establish contact was not made could also somehow not know they were doing so, that scenario could happen. That compounds with the fact that people who are doing something warranting such a raid are also among the types most prone to rash action, and to deluding themselves as to how the law works.

These encounters are not likely to go well for the citizen regardless if the police are right or not. If people want the right, that's understandable, but let's not pretend that "shooting the police for breaking the law" is going to go well for the people doing the shooting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:55 pm 
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If the encounters are not likely to end well for citizens then I suggest legalizing claymore mines for civilian usage.

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Elmarnieh wrote:
If the encounters are not likely to end well for citizens then I suggest legalizing claymore mines for civilian usage.

Seconded for alternate purposes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Clearly, an arms race would improve things. Elmo's grasp on reality has not improved in 8 years.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:18 pm 
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It is amazing how much more careful people are when they are risking something in the endeavor.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:19 pm 
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From this story:

More links and video at the link
$20 Million claim against DOC by man shot 16 times

{italics emphasis by me}
Linda Byron@ King5.com wrote:
by LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News

Outside review criticizes police shooting of innocent man
Thirty-year-old Dustin Theoharis in Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, recovering from his twelfth surgery - this one to reconstruct his jaw. It’s unlikely he will ever fully recover from the barrage of bullets fired by police on Feb. 11, 2011. His attorney, Erik Heipt said that Theoharis suffered "a broken shoulder, 2 broken arms, broken legs, he had a compression fracture to his spine, damage to his liver and spleen.”

Theoharis wasn't the guy police were after. The King County Sheriff's deputy and Washington Department of Corrections officer who shot him were at the house to arrest a man who’d violated his parole. But in a search of the house after the shooting, they surprised Theoharis in the basement room he was renting.

Cole Harrison, who was at the house, described it this way: "They (the officers) rushed into that room like they were going to get somebody. I mean they rushed down there and then all of a sudden. Boom, boom, boom, boom.”

It’s estimated that the two officers fired more than 20 bullets; 16 hit Theoharis, who was lying in bed. The officers said they thought Theoharis was reaching for a gun. They later told investigators they weren’t sure how many bullets they fired.

"I thought he was going to try to kill us, there is no greater level of threat,” King County Deputy Aaron Thompson told investigators during an interview months after the shooting.

Theoharis didn’t have any weapons, but both the Sheriff’s Office and the Department of Corrections ruled the shooting justified and in compliance with policy.

Last month King County agreed to pay Theoharis $3 million to avoid litigation. Attorneys for Theoharis said Wednesday they filed a $20 million claim against the State Department of Corrections for their role in the shooting.

This just as a critical report has been released that questions how the officers wound up in a situation where they felt compelled to use deadly force and how the follow-up investigation was handled.

The review was presented to the King County Council at a special briefing Tuesday morning.

The review was requested by Charles Gaither, the new civilian watchdog of the Sheriff's Office and was done by police accountability expert Merrick Bobb, the same man who is monitoring court ordered reforms of the Seattle Police Department. Bobb’s non-profit agency, Police Assessment Resource Center, was paid $24,999 for the review, which took months.
The review states that Theoharis's case "highlights significant weaknesses in existing policies and practices regarding deadly force investigations.”

The review notes that the officers who shot Theoharis refused to be interviewed at the scene.

Deputy Aaron Thompson did provide a written statement a month later, after he'd had the opportunity to discuss the case with fellow officers at a debriefing, according to the review.

Under the current guild contract, officers can request a delay of up to 72 hours to provide a written statement. The review states, “Although that delay itself is problematic, KCSO nonetheless should have issued the order the evening of the shooting so as to obtain the evidence as soon as possible.”

The review also questioned why no one from the Internal Investigations Unit (IIU) came to the shooting and why IIU did not open an investigation for six months even though Theoharis clearly felt that the shooting was unjustified when it happened.

The report, also suggests that the Sheriff’s Office was more concerned about advocating for its officers than getting to the bottom of what happened in its follow up investigations. The reviewers said that there was an apparent conflict of interest with the first responding sergeant who took control of the crime scene, later switching roles from supervisor and neutral party to officer advocate. The same sergeant later served as one of the deputy’s two guild representatives in an interview with Internal Investigations Unit.

However the review does credit the King County Sheriff’s Office with taking action to change policies and procedures in the aftermath of the shooting.

Sheriff John Urquhart told the King County Council at the Tuesday’s briefing that he is negotiating with the guild to change the 72 hour rule for providing statements following an officer involved shooting. Urquhart said he has already put in place a major change that allows Internal Investigations to begin an administrative investigation, looking into possible policy violations and alleged misconduct, concurrently with the criminal investigation.

The review criticized the criminal investigation by the Major Crimes Unit of the King County Sheriff’s Office, saying that evidence was overlooked, shell casings moved and the crime scene video wasn't dated and wasn't shot continuously making it difficult to decipher.

Sheriff Urquhart, who took office after it happened, recently apologized personally to Theoharis, but concedes he can't make up for what was lost.

"It was very very sad. We can't ever make him whole, we can't ever bring him back to the man he was and that's a shame. I felt horrible,” Urquhart said.
The Department of Corrections issued the following statement in regard to the $20 million claim filed by Dustin Theoharis:

“We have already conducted a thorough review and determined that the specialist used appropriate force and followed the proper procedures in a dangerous situation. We will wait until after the claim is resolved to discuss specific details.”


This was an innocent guy, sleeping in his own bed, when officers serving a warrant for someone else living there shot him. They claimed he was reaching for a gun, but it could just have easily been his glasses, or the light switch, etc..

Edit: I should point out, that my reason for presenting this is not because he was shot in the first place, but because the subsequent investigation determined that this was justified. I have serious issues with this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:24 am 
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LEAs and LEOs get undue deference in our current criminal justice system.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:58 am 
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If law enforcement was as culpable as regular citizens I would be willing to bet that the move to militarize police would stop and the pendulum would swing back to community policing.

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Hannibal wrote:
If law enforcement was as culpable as regular citizens I would be willing to bet that the move to militarize police would stop and the pendulum would swing back to community policing.


If law enforcement was as culpable as regular citizens they would be totally ineffective at best, and not exist at all at worst. Just imagine the problems doctors have with excessive liability and then multiply that times about a million, because unlike doctors, police have to deal with a large percentage of the population that hates their entire existence and would basically dedicate their lives to destroying them with lawsuit after lawsuit.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
If law enforcement was as culpable as regular citizens I would be willing to bet that the move to militarize police would stop and the pendulum would swing back to community policing.


If law enforcement was as culpable as regular citizens they would be totally ineffective at best, and not exist at all at worst. Just imagine the problems doctors have with excessive liability and then multiply that times about a million, because unlike doctors, police have to deal with a large percentage of the population that hates their entire existence and would basically dedicate their lives to destroying them with lawsuit after lawsuit.


I agree viss ziss statement. Ze polizei must be above ze law!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Since the police aren't above the law now, and aren't shown excessive deference, the point is moot.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Qualified immunity is excessive deference.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:39 pm 
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No, it is not. Qualified immunity is basic fairness on points of law that are not yet settled. Thinking it is "excessive deference" means you're either an armchair quarterback just flinging **** out there knowing you don't need to deal with the realities of it, or you simply don't understand how it works.

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