The Glade 4.0

Are all citizens equal before the law with it in place? No they are not. Police are held to a lower standard of knowledge of the law than everyone else.

Excessive deference.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

That has absolutely nothing to do with qualified immunity. You have conclusively demonstrated that you do not understand it, and - as usual - are playing word games to distort it in order to score point. I will, however, explain it as briefly as possible - qualified immunity relates to points of law that no one knows the answer to because they have never come up before. There is no way anyone can be held to any standard of knowledge in such cases.

Maybe if you spent more effort on learning the law, and less effort on trying to force it to conform to your own wishes through sheer force of argumentum ad naseum, you wouldn't have these problems.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Police can commit crimes and claim they did so because they believed they were following the law. No one else gets that kind of excuse taken as valid.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

It means no such thing whatsoever. You are totally uninformed on this subject.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Ok this is bull ****. In a previously thread somewhere buried in some iteration of this board was the information about a wrong address raid that I was a victim of.
The police confiscated things at random.
No charges were ever filed they hit the wrong address period end of discussion.
during the raid they took all firearms in the house. it took a year to get the most of them back some took five years. but my prized shotgun ( a gift from my Grand father) took 25 years to be returned to me. it was only returned because the estate of the police officer that lead the raid tried to sell a reported stolen gun.
No officer was ever punished or reprimanded for their actions. cost to recover property illegally taken through court to me around 10k.
The police made a mistake I can accept that but they continued after that to cover there illegal actions and withhold property for no cause. in the the case of my shotgun it was never documented that it was taken (despite 4 witnesses). that was nothing more than than theft.
there are still 2 firearms that haven't been returned from that raid.

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

Which was 25 years ago and is anecdotal.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

so the fact that I was a victim and had property illegal taken\stolen and cost me me money to recover. by law enforcement I shouldn't have any rights to defend my self from such actions?

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

That wouldn't end well for you. There's no point in a right that just gets your *** shot off. Use the courts.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Can we (as a people) have rights if we never risk that?

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The Dude abides.

If you risk it as an organized group, then you won't just get your *** pointlessly shot off, and may accomplish something. You may notice that the people everyone likes to point to as resisting tyranny needed to form a trained army in order to accomplish what they wanted. Individuals trying to shoot redcoats for violating their personal rights would just have been slaughtered. Even militia forces, despite a modicum of organization, didn't work.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Except when they did. No they don't work very well in stand up battles, but if the last 10 years has taught is anything it's that a dedicated, intrenched insurgency can be a pita for a regular military.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes,it can be a pain in the ***, and thats about it. However, people shooting at copsover search warrant errors does not an insurgency make. There's also the fact that if you're going to have an insurgency, its a little silly to complain that its against the law.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

What actually disturbs me here, above all else, is that this somehow requires a separate law.

If an intruder breaks into your home illegally, and you shoot them, it should, by default, NOT be against the law, no matter who the intruder happens to be. Why should police have special protections in that regard? Why should they need a special law that leaves them just as open to self-defense claims as any other person?

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

What the hell kinda' shitty-ass police state are you trying to build, here?

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

It is by default not against the law to shoot someone entering your house illegally. Police officers aren't the default, however. The default assumption is a normal person, who does not have the power to obtain a warrant at all.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

But warrants create exceptions for the specific entry, not for the person able to obtain warrants generally.

If you have a warrant for 1 Main Street and kick down my door, you've still entered my house illegally. If you theoretically *could* call up a judge and have him issue a warrant for my house, but you haven't done so and kick down the door anyway, you've still entered my house illegally. It doesn't matter that you are an officer who has the ability to obtain warrants. What matters is whether you HAVE obtained a warrant FOR MY HOUSE, in THIS INSTANCE WHERE YOU'RE ENTERING MY HOUSE.

It really makes me cringe that this is a distinction that you don't readily make, DE.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

It shouldn't. This distinction is utterly asinine. It presumes the ability of the homeowner to know whether there is a warrant or not. If the police have a warrant, but it happens to be for the wrong house, they're still going to tell you they have a warrant. Are you going to walk up to them, ask to see the warrant, determine its for the wrong house, then ask them to hold on a sec while you go get your gun?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Isn't this kinda the point of the warrant - for the citizen to see it and know they're not about to be subjected to unlawful search and seizure? Otherwise cops could tear your house up, go get a warrant later, and everything is then magically okay?

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The Dude abides.

They wouldn't be able to do that because any information obtained under the erroneous warrant would be fruit of the poisonous tree, and inadmissible.

In the case of knock-warrants, where you can examine the warrant and then let them in, or else point out it's incorrect, you have the opportunity to see the warrant and point out the mistake, and therefore won't need to do any shooting. If they insist on coming in anyhow, they are not going to wait around for you to go get a gun. If it's a no-knock warrant, you're simply guessing that the warrant is erroneous or nonexistent when you start shooting.

That's why it's much better to simply eliminate no-knock warrants; that way criminals cannot use them to pretend to be police. If the police make a mistake, however, or do something improper it is much better that the citizen confront them in court, rather than risk permanent injury or death because their imaginings of themself as defending their rights is vastly greater than their physical capabilities to do so.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

In My case the police knocked then kicked in the door, even though someone was opening it to find out what they wanted after handcuffing everyone they presented the warrant it was pointed out to them that they were at the wrong address. warrant very clearly stated 5265
not 5625. no names on the warrant matched anybody present. They still continued for 3 hours to turn everything upside down in the house, and take all the firearms.
did they suffer any repercussions from it Hell no They hit the right house the next night.

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

Well, that was in your case, and I'll say the same thing I say about all personal anecdotes - we're only getting your side of the story.

Do you think you'd somehow have been better off shooting at them? Do you really think they'd have let you go get your guns at that point?

There's a system for addressing problems like this. If it didn't work out the way you wanted it to, well.. Again, all we have is your side of the story.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Ultimately, this law is a good thing, except that it only had to exist because of undue legal protections given to police to begin with.

However, this law is not being presented the right way.

This law should not be considered "permission to shoot a cop." It should not in any way inform your decision on whether or not to use a firearm in defense of your home. This law is also not there to make police more careful in the execution of a warrant.

The purpose of this law, is so that in a case of inadvertently killing a cop who has invaded your home illegally -- whether by mistake, or by abuse of power -- you are not prosecuted as a common cop-killing murderer. This law is protection for when a person does what they should do -- defend their home -- they don't get 20 to life for it. As such, this law prevents the legal system from committing a great injustice, and is therefore necessary.

Yes, some jackasses are going to use it as an excuse to shoot at cops who are doing their job, whether legally or legally. Chances are, those people won't live long, because if you intentionally choose to stand your ground against a team of trained law officers, you are going to lose, and probably fatally.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █