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 Post subject: Racial discrimination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Hawaiian style!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 14444.html

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Proponents say the plan would duplicate the legal scenario set up for Native Americans, but the Akaka bill carves out new territory. Unlike Indian tribes made up of tightly knit populations that have lived together continuously, participation in the new group would be available to nearly anyone able to trace their roots back to a Native Hawaiian ancestor, no matter where they now reside. U.S. Civil Rights Commission member Gail Heriot told Congress in June that, "If ethnic Hawaiians can be accorded tribal status, why not Chicanos in the Southwest? Or Cajuns in Louisiana?"

Under the Akaka bill, someone will have to divine exactly who qualifies as a Native Hawaiian. In the bill's current version, the determination would be handled by a nine member commission staffed by experts in native Hawaiian genealogy. That, says the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, amounts to racial discrimination and would "subdivide the American People into discrete subgroups accorded varying degrees of privilege."

The Supreme Court has already ruled that elections based on a blood quota violate the Fifteenth Amendment's ban on restricting voting along racial lines. In its 2000 decision in Rice v. Cayetano, the Court held that the Office of Hawaiian Affairs could not hold elections limited to ethnic Hawaiians. "Ancestry can be a proxy for race," the court wrote, "and is that proxy here


Remember kids you are not an individual you are an aggrieved ethnic minority that must be pitted against others!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:24 pm 
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We did roll in and occupy land that said indigenous population owned. If it's ok for the native Americans, why not for the native Hawaiians?

Gorey details aside, mind you, I'm talking about the basic question here - do indigenous peoples have the right to self rule?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Gorey details aside, mind you, I'm talking about the basic question here - do indigenous peoples have the right to self rule?


It would seem they lost that when we conquered them.

IMHO, one of the worst things we did was to create reservations. Better to just assimilate them into the population in the long run.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:33 pm 
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So, their rights were lost because we subjected them? Should that be the case anywhere we take with military force?

Do you have a flag?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Subjugated. And yes, when you conquer an indigenous population, you're supposed to slaughter any male unable to walk upright under the tongue of an oxcart, and rape all the women.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Monte wrote:
So, their rights were lost because we subjected them? Should that be the case anywhere we take with military force?



I'm a huge advocate for the rights of Native Americans, but the only logical question when it comes to the "rights" of indigenous peoples is: where does it end? I mean, should we all get off their land?

Rather, should you all get off my land?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Can you walk upright under the tongue of an oxcart?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:11 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
Can you walk upright under the tongue of an oxcart?


Irrelevant. Liberalism dictates reparations must be made. The only question is where you stop.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Monte wrote:
So, their rights were lost because we subjected them? Should that be the case anywhere we take with military force?

Do you have a flag?


When you conquer a country, typically you assimilate them into your country using your rules. That has been typically the way things have been throughout history. Often times, the subjugated will hold on to regional traditions, etc., but from a laws of the land standpoint they become citizens of the conquering country and bound by it's rules.

IMHO, the American Indians as a culture, probably would have been more successful had that happened to them, instead of being placed on reservations and provided food/shelter.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:18 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:02 pm 
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For the Alliance!!! Oh.. wait wrong thread...

Preserving your heritage should be a personal thing, not a government thing...


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Monte wrote:
So, their rights were lost because we subjected them? Should that be the case anywhere we take with military force?

Do you have a flag?


Yes. We didn't subjugate them, we made them citizens (not to excuse the delay in doing so, but they are citizens now and that's what matters)

It's perfectly acceptable to conquer a place and make it your own as long as you then treat the populace just as you do the citizens you have beforehand. That's really what gives conquest a bad name - practically no one does this, or else their governments aren't fulfilling the responsibilities to their citizens in the first place.

I don't know what rights you think they lost. They have all the Constitutional rights of other citizens. They don't have the right to an independant country; that's not a right. It's a situation you create by being able to defend yourself.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:55 pm 
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These days, who is conquering who?

All this is history. If Native Americans want self rule, they have it. If they want to join the United States as citizens, they can do that too. What I've seen which bugs me is those who want to be both, depending on which offers better perks at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:24 pm 
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Monte wrote:
We did roll in and occupy land that said indigenous population owned. If it's ok for the native Americans, why not for the native Hawaiians?

Gorey details aside, mind you, I'm talking about the basic question here - do indigenous peoples have the right to self rule?


Who said they are indigenous to this land?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:54 am 
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Rafael wrote:
Monte wrote:
We did roll in and occupy land that said indigenous population owned. If it's ok for the native Americans, why not for the native Hawaiians?

Gorey details aside, mind you, I'm talking about the basic question here - do indigenous peoples have the right to self rule?


Who said they are indigenous to this land?


As indigenous as anybody is to anyplace but Africa (or wherever Lucy was found).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:12 am 
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Somehow I feel compelled to say..

Get a damned job!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:00 pm 
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The Native American Tribes are absolutely, 100% different than the tribes of Hawaii, for one reason and one reason only.

The American Government signed treaties to end hostilities with the Native Americans. Native Americans (in posession of such treaties) have all the rights allotted to them in those treaties, including citizenship, and may sue the government for violation of those treaties.

That is not the case in Hawaii.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The Native American Tribes are absolutely, 100% different than the tribes of Hawaii, for one reason and one reason only.

The American Government signed treaties to end hostilities with the Native Americans. Native Americans (in posession of such treaties) have all the rights allotted to them in those treaties, including citizenship, and may sue the government for violation of those treaties.

That is not the case in Hawaii.


Thank you sir that was very well put.


Allow me to respond with a question, though:

What if one treaty was broken by one party or the other, and then a subsequent treaty was coerced upon one party or the other in which the early treaty violation was absolved. Does the latter treaty, being based upon coercion, become invalid? If the former treaty invalid for having been broken?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Been reading your American History again DFK?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:48 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Been reading your American History again DFK?



Na, I'm just very aware of how we treated most of the NE and great lakes tribes.

For example, allowing certain elements of the Miami tribe to speak for other tribal sects at the Treaty of Greenville, even though they had no authority to do so.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:05 pm 
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You act as if there is a difference within the savages.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Coercion doesn't make a treaty invalid. If it did, how could you ever end a war with a peace treaty? We coerced the hell out of the Japanese to sign a treaty at the end of WWII; same thing at Versailles and quite a few others.

Nations aren't people. The concepts of equality, freedom, etc. don't apply to interactions between nations. The only thing nations have is interests and capabilities.

That doesn't mean being a ruthless bastard is a good idea; that just makes it harder to advance your interests peacefully, which is the cheapest way. It just means that if a nation ceases to exist out of inability to defend itself... well, it had better hope some third nation has an interest in seeing it restored.

That also doesn't excuse the winning nation from its duties to its new citizens. Once you conquer a nation its now part of your nation. Its problems are now your problems. You can always let it go back to being independant if you want to, but you can't have it both ways. You need to figure out a way to handle it if you keep it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Coercion doesn't make a treaty invalid.


What does?

DE wrote:
That doesn't mean being a ruthless bastard is a good idea; that just makes it harder to advance your interests peacefully, which is the cheapest way.


Actually yes, it is a good idea, if you use the theory you seem to be espousing of, essentially "to the victor go the spoils." Showing mercy and compassion whilst simultaneously taking land via iron fist don't go well together, and only serve to undermine all foreign policy. This is ok if you are a super-power out to control the known world, a la the Roman Empire under the Caesars; but not in the modern age where national borders are essentially set.


Keep in mind, I'm not advocating any one position over another. I'm pointing out the inherent hypocrisy in our dealings with both indigenous and conquered peoples in this nation and in others.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:35 am 
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DFK! wrote:
What does?


Generally, the failure of one party to adhere to it. Even that, however, depends on what the aggrieved party wants to do about it. They may abrogate the treaty themselves, they may decide it doesn't matter, or they may call on other nations to impose some consequence or try to impose it themselves.

The problem, of course, is that a great many treaty abrogations are less than clear-cut. Countries have different legal systems, and while there are international conventions the bottom line is that international institutions to enforce treaties and other "international laws" are a joke and really depend on the willingness of nations both to adhere to their decisions and to enforce them on others.

Ultimately unless you have a world government, these institutions are weak at best, and at worst are simple a forum for political maneuvering.

The real question is not what validates a treaty, but what makes it valid?

DE wrote:
Actually yes, it is a good idea, if you use the theory you seem to be espousing of, essentially "to the victor go the spoils." Showing mercy and compassion whilst simultaneously taking land via iron fist don't go well together, and only serve to undermine all foreign policy. This is ok if you are a super-power out to control the known world, a la the Roman Empire under the Caesars; but not in the modern age where national borders are essentially set.


That was my point. My theory isn't "to the victor goes the spoils" because there are no spoils. Once you conquer the area, it's your responsibility to take care of it. You need to come up with a way to make the people there into regular citizens of your country

The other problem with "To the victor go the spoils" is essentially that the spoils may not be worth enough to win the victory in the first place. Sometimes you have to fight anyhow, to stop that guy from attakcing you over and over again, in which case part of the "spoils" is the elimination of a threat, but the point is that everything has to be weighed in a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis. War is just a tool. If you're thinking "Where and how should I go to war to get maximum benefit?" you're already on the loosing side of the power curve because you're assuming war is the best option. By the same token, if you're thinking "What's the best peaceful solution to this problem?" you're also already losing because you're assuming a peaceful solution is necessarily better for you than one that involves war. Lots of people like to argue that's the case, but history has shown that not only is it not the case but it can lead to a longer and worse war anyhow. Appeasement of Germany is the classic example. In some cases merely creating the perception, even accidentally, that one is unwilling to fight has provoked aggression. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait is one example. Accidentally leaving South Korea out of a list of nations in a speech that the U.S. considered it important to defend gave Kim Il Sung the impression that he would not have to fight us.

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Keep in mind, I'm not advocating any one position over another. I'm pointing out the inherent hypocrisy in our dealings with both indigenous and conquered peoples in this nation and in others.


I was going to respond to this but I'm a little unclear what hypocrisy you're referring to. I'd also point out that it's somewhat hypocritical of indigenous people in this day and age to want to have it both ways. Avoiding hypocrisy is a good thing, but it's not the end goal of national policy.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:47 pm 
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The other difference is that the US government didn't overthrow the Hawaii'an one. The plantation owners did, with the backing of the US Marines who were illegally directed to do so.

In fact, the president at the time insisted upon the reinstatement of the queen following the coup d'état.

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