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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
And from the start...

Genesis 28:9


Yep, Esau was the first person mentioned to break God's perfect standard on marriage. Where do you see that his choice was a God inspired decision? He not only married two women, he married two women of the land (born and raised in idol worship), and apparently his mother wasn't too keen on them, and she sent her other son to get a wife from outside the land. Yeah this didn't work out so well.

God allows people to break his perfect standard on marriage, like he does his standard on everything else. Free Will and all that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Polygamy was cool in the OT but modern Christians like to pretend that God changed his set of morals after he had a son


1. Jesus always existed. (another exposition for another day)
2. Why would we do that? Seriously. If it wasn't that important why would we fight for it? Contrary to popular mis-characterization, we are not a bunch of old fuddy-duddies out of steal your fun. Mostly we want to be in peace, free to live our lives to our standards, but also free to tell others that which we believe to be true.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:33 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
1. Jesus always existed. (another exposition for another day)


So the morality and sin differences between the Old and New Testaments are actually without reason? Well, then...

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:36 pm 
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We live in different periods of how God relates to people (called dispensations)than the Children of Israel did. However he's the same God with the same standards, he just expresses that to different people, in different times, in different ways. (Again, another big spiritual exposition I could go there if you really want to listen.)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:39 pm 
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So, given what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-18, what's the current translated punishment for a woman committing adultery? What is the different way, in this different time, that God is telling us to kill our cheating wives? If we're not supposed to kill them, why did he change his mind? Why would an omnipotent being ever change its mind?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:08 pm 
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I'm not familiar with those aspects of Roman Law. Today, in American society, we don't really care. That's probably another extreme.
The Jews weren't running their own country at this time. God has (yes, has) a different purpose for Israel than he does for the church. The historic nation of Israel was to be a theocracy, enforcing the standards of God with the full weight of national law. He was trying to show the Israelites (and such by their example) just how holy he was. He gave them the law, not so they could fulfill it, but to show them that no one could meet God's perfect standards on their own. That's why they needed sacrifices, until the Messiah came.

Israel did a pretty lousy job in all aspects, including the sexual one, which is why they lost their theocracy when the Assyrians and Babylonians would allowed to remain. Someday God is going to see the nation of Israel as whole again, and Jesus Christ, as the Son of David, will rule over them (commonly referred to as the millennium).

In summary, the Old Testament is about Israel and God's promise to give them the Land and make them a special nation, one that has the blessing of the Creator God. The promises of the OT are about the land and the nation, the concept of anyone living eternally in the presence of God is only winked at.

The new Testament Isn't about a Theocracy. It's about individuals who has put their faith in trust in the Messiah, now have an eternity with God, trying to live lives such that others will see they are different in a good way and want to know how to have what they have. Different time, different method, Same God trying to show his character and plan for humanity.

So God hates sexual immorality as much as he always has, but deals with it in different ways. It's the same with his standards in other areas Abel wasn't given a death penalty, for murder. Everyone who lies about how much they give isn't struck dead in the church door, but God still has an absolute standard about lying and proper accounting. This may seem inconsistent, or "changing his mind" but God judges justly, based on the case, and knowledge, and his plan at the time. Israel had a lot of knowledge at the time he was trying to set them apart from a perverse world that was sacrificing it's children to false gods. The couple who lied about selling a piece of land in Acts did so at a time when the church was trying grow so judged them more harshly than he might someone today.

I've take a good amount of time to flesh this out. I'd love to know why you think a Christian would want to condole sexual immorality if the basis for it wasn't there, in scripture. If it's not there, then we wouldn't need to adhere to it either, so it's not like were trying to deny it to people because its denied to us.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:22 pm 
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With regard to homosexuality, we don't actually know for sure what Paul was referring to. The word used doesn't really translate adequately to English, and the concept of a "sexual orientation" did not exist at that time.

"Sexual immorality" is a term we use today in order to punt. We know that "Sexual immorality" is sinful, but knowing what sexual immorality is, is very hard, and by using the term we admit that the Bible doesn't exactly tell us.

As for an omnipotent being changing His mind, God knew at all times what would eventually happen, so He never changed his mind. He always had in mind the transition that would occur from the OT to the NT; a strong argument can be made that the entire OT exists to demonstrate the inadequacy of humans at fulfilling God's law, and therefore showing us why we need Christ.

But, regardless of the reasoning, God can and will do as He wills and does not need to conform to your preconceptions of what an omnipotent being might or might not do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Rori:
I didn't think the law in that case related to Roman law, but to God's law spoken throughout the OT (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Proverbs).

Rorinthas wrote:
This may seem inconsistent, or "changing his mind" but God judges justly, based on the case, and knowledge, and his plan at the time.


Seems awfully convenient to me, but it's not something I can argue against. Still seems like you're justifying a wishy-washy ruleset.

Rorinthas wrote:
I've take a good amount of time to flesh this out. I'd love to know why you think a Christian would want to condole sexual immorality if the basis for it wasn't there, in scripture. If it's not there, then we wouldn't need to adhere to it either, so it's not like were trying to deny it to people because its denied to us.


My only issue with religions, not Christianity in particular, is the attempt to inject spiritual belief into law. I don't ask you to personally accept or look past any perceived immoralities. I don't deny you the belief that marriage is a religious construct, but in the framework of our country and our laws it is a government institution and not a spiritual one.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:35 pm 
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You're moving the goal posts. You accused Christians of being down on sexual immorality when it's not part of our doctrine. Why do you think we would do that? Or were you just trying to get your digs in?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:39 pm 
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DE we don't know exactly what Paul meant, other than some sexual acts are off limits, but we can look at other parts of scripture to get an idea about where God stands on the subject.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Done for the night. I'll be glad to discuss further later.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
You're moving the goal posts. You accused Christians of being down on sexual immorality when it's not part of our doctrine. Why do you think we would do that?

The short answer: because Christianity, like so many other religions, is used as a tool for control. Wanting someone to behave a certain way holds no inherent weight; make it a moral imperative (which you define yourself [note: general "you"]), then make it matter of eternal damnation, and then you have a real method of control.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Fair enough. Personally I don't want to control anyone (as if I could). Then again I'm not the one suing (auto correct fail) people because they don't want to take pictures of me kissing another man.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:55 am 
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Lenas: modern marriage may be a political construct, but why should Christian's have any less say in it or any other laws in a representative democracy. Personally, I think if the government got out of the marriage business then Homosexuals and Christians could both do what they wanted in that arena.

Giving homosexual unions legal equality with marriage only seems to lead to the kind of bullying with the force of law I mentioned above.

That would require the Government to give up some of its tools of control.

People should be free to live the dictated of their conscience so long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's ability to do the same.
That's my contention, a loud, probably minor group of homosexuals doesn't want to allow Christians to disagree with them. However despite their size they are the loudest voice in that community and many who dislike Christianity on their own hang-ups seem to have no problem goading them in the name of liberty.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:01 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
DE we don't know exactly what Paul meant, other than some sexual acts are off limits, but we can look at other parts of scripture to get an idea about where God stands on the subject.


Which we have not been doing. All we've been doing is assuming that we know what Paul meant and then reading a confirmation of that into other Scripture. We tend to focus on lines with direct implications for sexuality, and fail to read them in light of broader, more important principles. "All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable".

Not profitable =\= sinful.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:04 am 
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I don't want to read all that.

Genesis wrote:
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”

6 “Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.

9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”

13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.


God blessed this adulterous affair between Abram and his wife's slave.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:10 am 
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Sure we are not under the law but under grace if we know Jesus as our savior.

However what was sin is always going to be sin and if there isn't sin, why do people need a savior?

So I think it's alright to be engaging the world (the people who don't know Jesus and their world system) in what sin is, not just telling them its okay. That is certainly in step with what you see in the gospels.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:25 am 
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Lenas wrote:
I don't deny you the belief that marriage is a religious construct, but in the framework of our country and our laws it is a government institution and not a spiritual one.


It's both, actually.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:36 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
...why should Christian's have any less say in it or any other laws in a representative democracy.


I'll tell you what, let's give Christianity control over marriage and ban the gays from ever getting married again. Then let's institute some Sharia law and abolish all of our women's rights. After that's taken care of, I'd like to apply some Hindu law and outlaw Americans from eating beef anymore. You cool with all that? If your religion is going to get a say in the laws I think we should be fair across the board.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:50 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Lenas: modern marriage may be a political construct, but why should Christian's have any less say in it or any other laws in a representative democracy. Personally, I think if the government got out of the marriage business then Homosexuals and Christians could both do what they wanted in that arena.

Giving homosexual unions legal equality with marriage only seems to lead to the kind of bullying with the force of law I mentioned above.


This seems to directly contradict something I was reading last night.... where was it?

Ah here we go
Rorinthas wrote:
The new Testament Isn't about a Theocracy. It's about individuals who has put their faith in trust in the Messiah, now have an eternity with God, trying to live lives such that others will see they are different in a good way and want to know how to have what they have. Different time, different method, Same God trying to show his character and plan for humanity.


Seems to me that Christians by your own interpretation should keep their morality out of governance and instead serve as fabulous paragons of how everybody else should live.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:53 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
...why should Christian's have any less say in it or any other laws in a representative democracy.


I'll tell you what, let's give Christianity control over marriage and ban the gays from ever getting married again. Then let's institute some Sharia law and abolish all of our women's rights. After that's taken care of, I'd like to apply some Hindu law and outlaw Americans from eating beef anymore. You cool with all that? If your religion is going to get a say in the laws I think we should be fair across the board.


Since Hindus and Muslims are not present in this country in the proportions Christians are, that would not be fair across the board. He said religious people get a say, not "religion" gets a say, which doesn't even make sense. Religious people kay vote for and advocate the policies they want, so long as they don't "establish religion", and regulations around marriage don't do that unless they were to, say, mandate marriage by clergy. The impetus of a law doesn't matter; the effect matters.
We don't give atheists or agnostics or whatever privilege to determine what laws and policies are too religious, either. Its amusing to see, however, that people advocate that sort of test, ignoring that its nothing more than attempts to impose atheist sharia of what political ideas are acceptable and what aren't.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:55 am 
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Interesting read.

http://io9.com/gay-marriage-in-the-year ... -951140108

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Gay marriage in the year 100 AD
Gay marriage sounds like an ultra-contemporary idea. But almost twenty years ago, a Catholic scholar at Yale shocked the world by publishing a book packed with evidence that same-sex marriages were sanctioned by the early Christian Church during an era commonly called the Dark Ages.

John Boswell was a historian and religious Catholic who dedicated much of his scholarly life to studying the late Roman Empire and early Christian Church. Poring over legal and church documents from this era, he discovered something incredible. There were dozens of records of church ceremonies where two men were joined in unions that used the same rituals as heterosexual marriages. (He found almost no records of lesbian unions, which is probably an artifact of a culture which kept more records about the lives of men generally.)

Bolstered by this evidence, Boswell published a book in 1994, the year before his death from AIDS, called Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe. The book comes out next month for the first time in a digital edition. It was an instant lightening rod for controversy, drawing criticism from both the Catholic Church and sex pundit Camille Paglia. Given the Church's present-day views on gay marriage, these detractors argued, Boswell's history seemed like wishful thinking.

But it wasn't. Boswell had actually begun his research back in the 1970s, and published an equally controversial work in 1980 called Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century. His Same-Sex Unions book refined and expanded a lot of what he'd learned over a lifetime of research into primary sources in scattered libraries and archives.

How could these marriages have been forgotten by history? One easy answer is that — as Boswell argues — the Church reframed the idea of marriage in the 13th century to be for the purposes of procreation. And this slammed the door on gay marriage. Church scholars and officials worked hard to suppress the history of these marriages in order to justify their new definition.

Of course, history is more complicated than that. Boswell claims that part of the problem is that we define marriage so differently today that it's almost impossible for historians to recognize 1800-year-old gay marriage documents when they see them. Often, these documents refer to uniting "brothers," which at the time would have been a way of describing same-sex partners whose lifestyles were tolerated in Rome. Also, marriages over a millennium ago were not based on procreation, but wealth-sharing. So "marriage" sometimes meant a non-sexual union of two people's or families' wealth. Boswell admits that some of the documents he found may refer simply to non-sexual joining of two men's fortunes — but many also referred to what today we would call gay marriage.

Legal scholar Richard Ante wrote a law journal article explaining that Boswell's book could even be used as evidence for the legality of gay marriage, since it shows evidence that definitions of marriage have changed over time. He describes some of Boswell's evidence of these same-sex rites in the early first millennium:

The burial rite given for Achilles and Patroclus, both men, was the burial rite for a man and his wife. The relationships of Hadrian and Antinous, of Polyeuct and Nearchos, of Perpetua and Felicitas, and of Saints Serge and Bacchus, all bore resemblance to heterosexual marriages of their times. The iconography of Serge and Bacchus was even used in same-sex nuptial ceremonies by the early Christian Church.
The main piece of evidence that these same-sex unions were marriages is that they so closely resembled heterosexual ceremonies. Literary scholar Bruce Holsinger describes Boswell's detailed stories of same-sex ceremonies:

[Boswell] cleverly posits the development of heterosexual and same-sex nuptial offices as a single phenomenon, tracking the growth of the latter from "merely a set of prayers " in the earlier Middle Ages to its flowering as a "full office" by the twelfth century that involved "the burning of candles, the placing of the two parties' hands on the Gospel, the joining of their right hands, the binding of their hands . . . with the priest's stole, an introductory litany crowning, the Lord's Prayer, Communion, a kiss, and sometimes circling around the altar." Boswell devotes a full chapter to comparing these rituals with their heterosexual counterparts, revealing a number of extraordinary similarities between the two; in several appendixes totaling almost 100 pages, he has compiled numerous examples of the documents themselves (including heterosexual matrimony ceremonies and adoption rituals for comparison) to let "readers . . . judge for themselves," as he puts it. (Boswell translates most of the ceremonies, so general readers won't have to worry about brushing up on their Old Church Slavonic.)

Were these same-sex unions in the middle ages the same thing as today's gay marriages? Probably not. People at the time may not have viewed two men forming a union as anything out of the ordinary. Marriage itself meant something different thousands of years ago, and social taboos against homosexuality had not yet solidified. Still, in Boswell's work, we find records of institutions where same-sex couples were honored with the same ceremonies that opposite-sex couples enjoyed. Two men could live as "brothers," sharing wealth, home, and family. And yes, they could love each other, too.

Though Boswell died before his country began to allow similar kinds of unions, he could draw hope from knowing something that most people did not. Even the most fundamental kinds of human relationships change over time. Those who have been banished today may be blessed tomorrow — just as they were over a thousand years ago.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:59 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Seems to me that Christians by your own interpretation should keep their morality out of governance and instead serve as fabulous paragons of how everybody else should live.

Christians should serve as examples to everyone else of how to live, including lawful participation in governance. They should no more keep their morality out of governance than moralities of individual liberty should be kept out.

Farsky: we discussed that issue a few years back, and the proposition was found questionable.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:16 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Since Hindus and Muslims are not present in this country in the proportions Christians are, that would not be fair across the board.


Fortunately we're living in a country that espouses the idea that all are free and equal, not a country in which the majority is equal and the rest can **** off.

Diamondeye wrote:
We don't give atheists or agnostics or whatever privilege to determine what laws and policies are too religious, either. Its amusing to see, however, that people advocate that sort of test, ignoring that its nothing more than attempts to impose atheist sharia of what political ideas are acceptable and what aren't.


It's irrelevant because you're moving goalposts and I never advocate it, but I'd love to know what you think atheists might institute into law or policy. Only teaching things that are evidence-based? What a **** world that'd be.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:22 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Since Hindus and Muslims are not present in this country in the proportions Christians are, that would not be fair across the board.


Fortunately we're living in a country that espouses the idea that all are free and equal, not a country in which the majority is equal and the rest can **** off.


And denying Christians the ability to participate equally in governance would be contrary to free and equal. Free and equal does not result from making atheism the de facto state religion, and banning other ideas as apostasy.
You have in the past advocated keeping "religion" out of public life which cannot be done except by limiting the participation of religious people, or subjecting ideas to a test of nonreligiousness. Its not my fault you can't think things all the way through. As for teaching based on evidence, atheists don't acknowledge evidence that doesn't pass the criteria they use to exclude evidence they don't want heard anyhow. The world it would be would be one of self-centered brats.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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