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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:28 am 
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lawsuit time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:52 am 
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The best part, of course, is this:

Do you think she got put on a list back at the precinct of "places we shouldn't SWAT-style raid because she'll talk to the press" or the list of "places we should shoot first because she's known to be armed at home"?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Alabama cop allegedly fired after blowing whistle on ticket quotas


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:12 am 
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Lying about the economy (blatantly) feels oppressive to me.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/70-stra ... 9600000000

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(CNSNews.com) - According to the Daily Treasury Statement for July 26, which the Treasury released this afternoon, the federal debt has been stuck at exactly $16,699,396,000,000.00 for 70 straight days. That is approximately $25 million below the legal limit of $16,699,421,095,673.60 that Congress has imposed on the debt.

The portion of the federal debt subject to the legal limit set by Congress first hit $16,699,396,000,000.00 at the close of business on May 17. At the close of every business day since then, it has also been $16,699,396,000,000.00, according to the official accounting published by the Treasury Department. If the debt had increased by even $30 million at any time during those 70 days, it would have exceeded the statutory limit. But, according to the Treasury, the debt did not do that. Instead, it remained precisely $16,699,396,000,000.00.

Even though the government's official accounting of the debt has not budged for 70 days, the Treasury has continued to sell bills, notes and bonds at a value that exceeds the value of the bills, notes and bonds it was redeeming. In fact, according to the Daily Treasury Statement for May 17, the Treasury had by then already redeemed approximately $4,776,995,000,000.00 since the beginning of the fiscal year (which started on Oct. 1, 2012). As of that same day, the Treasury had already sold $5,354,508,000.000.00 new bills, notes and bonds during the fiscal year. That represented a net increase in publicly circulating U.S. government debt instruments of $577,513,000,000.00 for the fiscal year. As of July 26, according to the latest Treasury statement, the Treasury had already redeemed approximately $6,128,368,000,000.00 in bills, notes and bonds during this fiscal year. But, at the same time, according to the statement, the Treasury had sold an additional $6,759,148,000,000.00 bills, note and bonds--for a net increase of $630,780,000,000.00 for the year. Thus, the value of U.S. Treasury debt instruments circulating in the public has increased $53.267 billion since May 17--even though the Treasury says the debt has remained exactly at $16,699,396,000,000.00 during that time.

How could the value of extant U.S. Treasury securities increase by $53.267 billion during a 70-day period when the federal government’s debt subject to the legal limit has remained constant at $16,699,396,000,000.00—just $25 million below the legal limit? On May 17, the day the debt began its long stay at $16,699,396,000,000.00, Treasury Secretary Lew sent a letter to House Speaker John Boehner. In the letter, Lew said the Treasury would begin implementing what he called “the standard set of extraordinary measures” that allows the Treasury to continue to borrow and spend money even after it has hit the legal debt limit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:27 am 
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Ah, the Italian method: If you can't abide by the standards, just lie and say you did!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:26 am 
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Er I meant about the National Debt which is a part of the economy I guess...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:05 am 
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Does this count? It sure can make one somewhat peeved....

http://washingtonexaminer.com/exography ... le/2533626

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* Returning to work is not a goal for 71 percent of the SSDI recipients, 60 percent of the SSI recipients.

* 75 percent of the SSDI recipients don't see themselves returning to work within five years, 65 percent of the SSI recipients don't.

* 72 percent of the small number of SSDI recipients who started a job while on disability got cash under the table, as did 70 percent of the small number of SSI recipients who started a job while on disability.

* 24 percent of the SSDI recipients lack even GEDs, as do 43 percent of the SSI recipients.

* Lack of childcare is not the reason they don't work for 95 percent of the SSDI recipients who are looking for work, 84 percent of the SSI recipients who are looking.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Double dose.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/blogs/ne ... -shooting/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/lawyer-b ... -left-cell

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Pensacola, Florida (CNN) -- Was he a suspect or a victim?

A Florida sheriff says an unarmed man -- mistaken for a car thief and shot by deputies in his own driveway -- is both.

He refused to obey commands and lunged at the deputies who fired their weapons 15 times to subdue him, they say.

Roy Middleton, 60, was hit by two of those rounds in his legs. He is in good condition at a Pensacola hospital after a metal rod was placed inside his shattered left leg.

"The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers," said Sheriff David Morgan of Escambia County, Florida. "Had that occurred we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's a tragedy all the way around. He is both a suspect and a victim."

'Like a firing squad'

The bizarre story started Saturday around 2:30 a.m. as Middleton was returning home.

Searching for a cigarette inside his White Lincoln Town Car, he appears to have been mistaken for a car thief by a concerned neighbor who called 911. Escambia County Sheriff's Deputy Jeremiah Meeks and Sgt. Matthew White responded to the call.

This is where the story takes a fork in the road.

Middleton's family said he was not feeling well enough to discuss what happened to him.

But earlier this week, he told the Pensacola News Journal that he first thought someone was joking when they yelled at him to, "Get your hands where I can see them."

He said that as he was turning around to face deputies with his hands raised, they opened fire.

"It was like a firing squad. Bullets were flying everywhere," he told the News Journal.

Deputies feared for their lives

But the deputies involved told a different story.

Meeks fired 12 shots and White fired three times, authorities said. They are now on paid administrative leave. Five of the bullets hit the White Town car, which was parked under a carport in a dark area of the property.

The deputies were in fear for their own safety, according to the sheriff.

"He came out of the car with more of a lunging motion coming out of the car, and the deputies were standing behind him and he had what appeared to be a metallic object in his hand," Sheriff David Morgan said.

Not buying it

But Middleton's family doesn't believe that story. His mother, Ceola Walker, 77, told CNN that her son was holding his car keys with a small flashlight on the key chain. She does not believe he lunged at deputies.

"I don't believe that. He said he didn't. I don't believe that," she said.

She says her son is incredibly lucky.

"They could have hit his upper body, but they didn't ....God just shielded him. I know he did, cause they was trying to kill him," she said.

Andre Lauzon, who lives next door and witnessed the incident, said it lasted less than 30 seconds.

Deafening gunfire

He was out smoking a cigarette on his front lawn when the deputies arrived, he said. His view was obscured by darkness, and at one point he lost sight of Middleton.

But the sound of gunfire, he said, was deafening.

"I'm very surprised that all they did was hit him in the leg," he said.

Timeline, lab analysis

Lauzon says his neighbor may have had trouble getting down to the ground because he was standing between his car and the wall of the carport.

"I don't have any doubt -- even not being able to see what was going on -- that he was complying with them," he told CNN. " Maybe not in the time frame that the officer was looking for -- but it seemed he was complying."

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has taken over the investigation at the request of the Sheriff's Office.

"FDLE investigators are developing a timeline and conducting interviews and crime laboratory scientists are conducting lab analysis," Gretl Plessinger, a spokeswoman for the agency, said in a statement. "Once our investigation is complete, FDLE will provide the case to the state attorney's office. The state attorney will determine whether or not any laws were broken.

Walker said her son takes pain medication for a bad back. The investigation will determine whether that played a role in the incident.

"The message to the public is this was a tragedy," Morgan said. "And it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

But his mother disputes the sheriff's theory that her son was a suspect and a victim at the same time.

"How can you be a suspect and a victim at your own house? In your own yard, in your own car?" Walker asked.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:15 pm 
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"The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers"

Wow.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:27 pm 
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"The message to the public is... it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

Gotta get the "message" out, do what they say, when they say it, without hesitation, smoothly and calmly (whether you're in your 60's with a bad back, or not), or you will be shot, repeatedly; it will be your fault, citizen.

As an aside, it's kinda neat how "citizen" has become a pejorative" in copspeak.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
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"... it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

Gotta get the "message" out, do what they say, when they say it, without hesitation, smoothly and calmly (whether you're in your 60's with a bad back, or not), or you will be shot, repeatedly.

As an aside, it's kinda neat how "citizen" has become a pejorative" in copspeak.


What disgusts me about this is the attitude that police are somehow "in authority." Police do not get to issue orders to citizens in their day-to-day lives. Police are not in charge. They have a job to do, that doesn't include harassing people before being sure that their involvement is needed.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:33 pm 
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The deputies were in fear for their own safety, according to the sheriff.

I have to say, I am sick to goddamn death of this excuse. Accepting an increased risk to your safety in order to protect the public is part of the **** job description, but so many cops seem to have adopted exactly the opposite idea and instead put officer safety ahead of public safety. If there's an ambiguous situation, it's the cops' **** job to absorb the risk themselves by taking the time to confirm whether there's an actual threat rather than put the risk on the public by shooting, tasering, pepper spraying or **** before confirming the threat. If you can't accept that, don't put on the badge in the first place.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Quote:
"... it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

Gotta get the "message" out, do what they say, when they say it, without hesitation, smoothly and calmly (whether you're in your 60's with a bad back, or not), or you will be shot, repeatedly.

As an aside, it's kinda neat how "citizen" has become a pejorative" in copspeak.


What disgusts me about this is the attitude that police are somehow "in authority." Police do not get to issue orders to citizens in their day-to-day lives. Police are not in charge. They have a job to do, that doesn't include harassing people before being sure that their involvement is needed.


Of course they're in authority, they've got the guns and the "authority" to shoot you if you don't prostrate yourself before them upon their command (remember to do it calmly and smoothly), citizen.

RangerDave wrote:
Quote:
The deputies were in fear for their own safety, according to the sheriff.

I have to say, I am sick to goddamn death of this excuse. Accepting an increased risk to your safety in order to protect the public is part of the **** job description, but so many cops seem to have adopted exactly the opposite idea and instead put officer safety ahead of public safety. If there's an ambiguous situation, it's the cops' **** job to absorb the risk themselves by taking the time to confirm whether there's an actual threat rather than put the risk on the public by shooting, tasering, pepper spraying or **** before confirming the threat. If you can't accept that, don't put on the badge in the first place.



It's coming right for us! Shoot it!
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"Earlier today, officers were forced to shoot and kill a pitbull posing a threat to the community. The officers fired thirteen shots hitting the dog twice. The officers were in fear for their safety because the pitbull charged the officers as they were entering the citizen's yard, while investigating a report of loitering reported earlier that very week. While the pitbull was on a chain behind the fence, it was not immediately apparent whether the chain was long enough to allow the pitbull to reach the officers, or even strong enough to restrain the charging pitbull. It is a tragedy that citizens have not gotten the message that animals must be properly restrained in the presence of law enforcement." said police spokesman Jeffery Maiale.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Sounds like Jeffery Maiale needs to have an interaction in another state with the officers he speaks for. 2/13 may not end up being lethal Jeff.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
It's coming right for us! Shoot it!

Lol! Indeed. The "officer safety > all" attitude seems particularly rampant where dogs are involved. The circumstances in which a dog poses a threat of serious harm (note: I do not consider a simple bite to be serious harm) to a grown man are few and far between, as evidenced by the rarity of serious dog attacks on mailmen, meter readers, rescue personnel, etc., yet cops shoot dogs with shocking regularity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Quote:
"... it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

Gotta get the "message" out, do what they say, when they say it, without hesitation, smoothly and calmly (whether you're in your 60's with a bad back, or not), or you will be shot, repeatedly.

As an aside, it's kinda neat how "citizen" has become a pejorative" in copspeak.


What disgusts me about this is the attitude that police are somehow "in authority." Police do not get to issue orders to citizens in their day-to-day lives. Police are not in charge. They have a job to do, that doesn't include harassing people before being sure that their involvement is needed.


They have to be given some level of authority in order to investigate complaints like this one. So yes, he should have complied. But, that doesn't mean they get to shoot him without giving him a reasonable chance to figure out what's going on, decide he should comply and start to do so.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Absolutely. I'd suggest that rather than begin the investigation with: "Get your hands where I can see them." They (as well as the citizen) would be better served if they began with: "We're police officers, please slowly step away from the vehicle."
Well, they'd also be better served with a bit more marksmanship training, I'd say that hitting a relatively stationary, man-sized, target from an active targeting position at relatively close range and hitting twice out of 15 attempts is pathetic.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Absolutely. I'd suggest that rather than begin the investigation with: "Get your hands where I can see them." They (as well as the citizen) would be better served if they began with: "We're police officers, please slowly step away from the vehicle."
Well, they'd also be better served with a bit more marksmanship training, I'd say that hitting a relatively stationary, man-sized, target from an active targeting position at relatively close range and hitting twice out of 15 attempts is pathetic.

Maybe the dude who fired 3 rounds is a decent shot and got two while Officer Twitchy who fired off 12 missed em all.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:18 am 
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"The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers"

I can't get this out of my head. I just...seriously. The scrotal sack necessary to hold the balls it takes to make a statement like that...Jesus, it's like someone deflated an elephant.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:29 am 
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FarSky wrote:
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"The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers"

I can't get this out of my head. I just...seriously. The scrotal sack necessary to hold the balls it takes to make a statement like that...Jesus, it's like someone deflated an elephant.

I keep hearing this in Eric Cartman' s voice from south park.

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Vindicarre wrote:
Absolutely. I'd suggest that rather than begin the investigation with: "Get your hands where I can see them." They (as well as the citizen) would be better served if they began with: "We're police officers, please slowly step away from the vehicle."
Well, they'd also be better served with a bit more marksmanship training, I'd say that hitting a relatively stationary, man-sized, target from an active targeting position at relatively close range and hitting twice out of 15 attempts is pathetic.


I'd say you have absolutely no idea how to handle a crime in progress.

I'd also say that the massive drop in accuracy in real-life shooting situations is well-documented and something we have gone over before, and "pathetic" shooting is the rule, not the exception.

The rest of it, like this entire thread, is not even worth responding to.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:20 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'd also say that the massive drop in accuracy in real-life shooting situations is well-documented and something we have gone over before, and "pathetic" shooting is the rule, not the exception.

Which is actually another really good argument against cops using their weapons in anything but the most extreme of circumstances. If more than 80% of their shots are likely to miss and become stray bullets flying around a residential neighborhood, the guy they're shooting at would have to pose a very serious, unambiguous and immediate threat to justify the risk to the public.


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It's a very good idea to identify yourself as a police officer off the bat, regardless of the confrontation. The officers initiated the confrontation, so they had the option of opening however they wanted.

@Hopwin: Even firing only 3 shots at someone because they turned around is twitchy as all hell, but I get your point.
(that said, if my partner lit off 12 shots, I'd be hard pressed to not get a little twitchy myself)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:38 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I'd also say that the massive drop in accuracy in real-life shooting situations is well-documented and something we have gone over before, and "pathetic" shooting is the rule, not the exception.

Which is actually another really good argument against cops using their weapons in anything but the most extreme of circumstances. If more than 80% of their shots are likely to miss and become stray bullets flying around a residential neighborhood, the guy they're shooting at would have to pose a very serious, unambiguous and immediate threat to justify the risk to the public.


The police are already not allowed to shoot in anything but extreme situations - threat to life and limb. The "stray bullets" argument was completely debunked when Monty made it and it's still nonsense. Bullets do not just go "flying around the neighborhood" when they miss; they hit what's beyond the target. That's a good argument not to shoot when there are bystanders directly beyond the target, but that's it.

As for your ideas about "risk", you're describing the permissibility of police using force as it already exists. The police do accept certain risks. That does not extend to allowing themselves to be attacked once a threat already appeared. That's what they claim in this case, the fact that the guy they shot claims otherwise does not somehow disprove that.

The real travesty here is that someone called the police and reported the man for "breaking into" his own car.

Quote:
It's a very good idea to identify yourself as a police officer off the bat, regardless of the confrontation. The officers initiated the confrontation, so they had the option of opening however they wanted.


It's more than a good idea, it's mandatory unless the person can already clearly see you. That said, it does not have to be the absolute first thing you say, and failure to do it does not mean the other person is justified in attacking you.

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@Hopwin: Even firing only 3 shots at someone because they turned around is twitchy as all hell, but I get your point.
(that said, if my partner lit off 12 shots, I'd be hard pressed to not get a little twitchy myself)


They didn't shoot him because he turned around. They shot him because it appeared to them that he had a weapon and was coming at them.

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