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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:29 am 
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Doesn't the conduct have to be illegal for the whistleblower laws to apply?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:00 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Except if they go to Congress. That's the proper authority in those cases.


Correct.

My comment was quite specific. That intelligence operatives aren't covered under the Whistleblower Act. I didn't say they were without any protection.


While technically true, I don't see that it's terribly important.


In the real world, you're absolutely right it's not terribly important. Here at the Glade it's supremely important because everyone argues semantics over content.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:02 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Doesn't the conduct have to be illegal for the whistleblower laws to apply?


The short answer is no. Wasteful and unethical conduct is also covered. And it's worded such that just having a firm belief is all that is necessary. But as DE pointed out there are proper channels to run those up, of which providing to the Chinese isn't included.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:26 am 
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Do you guys honestly believe that if Snowden expressed his concerns to his superiors or to Congress, they would have listened? That this information would have been made public?

Ultimately, it boils down to whether or not you think the massive, warrantless surveillance programs he revealed are okay. Obviously if you support them and think they are necessary to prevent terrorism, you're not going to agree with what Snowden did, and you are right to call him a traitor. But if you think the American public deserves to know that they are being spied on, that their private information is being intercepted and collected by the NSA, then how can you fault Snowden for going public? He should have gone to Congress first? You really think Congress would have listened?

If Snowden was merely a traitor, why didn't he release more damaging information? He was very selective in what he released. Yes, in some areas he may have went a little too far, but jesus christ, does he have to be **** perfect for you guys? If he was a coward, why wouldn't he just release all the info anonymously? He's already sacrificed his entire livelihood and left everyone he knows and loves to be an international fugitive on the run from the most powerful state in world, but not voluntarily subjecting himself to retaliation and jail time from the US government makes him a coward?

What about all the NSA analysts and directors who saw that all this was going on and didn't say anything? They're the cowards. What about the Director of National Intelligence, who lied to Congress about these programs? That's a felony. He's admitted it. Why isn't he being prosecuted? Why doesn't Congress give a ****? **** Snowden. He may have committed a crime, and he probably could have been a little better in selecting the info he released, so he's a **** traitor and a coward. **** him for not being perfect. Meanwhile, the government officials who have lied to us, have lied to Congress, have violated our fundamental rights in secret... they get a break. **** that ****. Aren't you guys the least bit angry about that?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:41 am 
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The short version Amanar is that it's not so black and white as your positioning.

I do think there needs to be more congressional oversight of secret programs like this, however the American public does not have the right to know everything that is secret, even if it's spying programs like the one we're discussing.

Bottom line with Snowden is I'm 100% certain that if he approached the right senator/house member he would have accomplished the awareness that he proports to have wanted, and would have not damaged our image and ability to work in the world arena as he's done.

My personal opinion is that he was someone who wanted to tell the current administration to **** off and make a **** ton of money in the process. Somewhere in there I'm sure was the feeling that what the government was doing was wrong but it has quickly become the lesser story because of how he went about his actions.

Just think about how this might have been different if he had directly approached Ron or Rand Paul.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:17 am 
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Except that's not how it works. You can't just pick any Congressman you want to leak classified information to. It has to be to the Senate or House Intelligence Committee and you have to go through the DoJ first. I don't think they would do anything because they're the ones who are briefed on and approved this program in the first place. Furthermore, whistleblowers in the past have tried to follow that path and have failed. See this USA Today article for some examples.

You're right that the surveillance programs are not black and white, and I understand many people don't have a problem with them. But Snowden's options for getting this info aren't black and white either. You guys make it sound so simple. None of us are experts on the various Whistleblower Protection Acts, or the culture of the NSA in regards to speaking out against their programs, nor do any of us have any experience with how responsive the Congressional Intelligence Committees are to such whistleblowing.

To sit here and assert that there were clear legal, internal avenues available to Snowden that would have let this information out to the general public without any such evidence or knowledge makes your entire argument suspect. If you have some evidence that this legal path was viable and open to Snowden (perhaps some examples of whistleblowers using it in the past?), or some experience with this sort of thing, I'd love to hear all about it. But if we're just going to sit here on our computers looking up the Whistleblower Protection Act and reading it's description on Wikipedia to help justify our arguments... I don't see the point.

I have the former NSA whistleblowers saying that Snowden took the best route here, that they tried to go through the proper legal channels and were ignored/silenced. Snowden explained pretty clearly in his interviews how he didn't believe he had any better options available to him. He worked there for years before releasing this information, supposedly because he was hopeful that things could be fixed internally. Ultimately he decided that wasn't going to work, and I'm inclined to trust him on that, lacking evidence to the contrary. At the very least, I'm not going to focus my criticism on him based on things I know very little about. Again if you have some evidence to the contrary here, I'd love to hear it. Until then, I'm going to direct my anger at the NSA, at Congress, and the government officials who have admitted to crimes and have not been prosecuted.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:04 pm 
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The system is corrupt all the way to the core. It's broken, it's malicious, self-serving, and quite bluntly, it doesn't work. You cannot fix it from the inside. You need to tear it down and start over. As it stands, it will just get more rotten. Eventually, you'll have to deal with this.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:01 pm 
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So there are fairly clear and legal paths to take. If they work or not is a whole other conversation. I'll even completely accept that the whistleblower process is broken.

All of that said, my point is still the same. I would have much more faith in his statements if he had run to a congress person, even if not "the appropriate" one, and released that information.

But selling the info to the Guardian and then running to China makes all of his "noble" efforts suspect to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
So there are fairly clear and legal paths to take. If they work or not is a whole other conversation. I'll even completely accept that the whistleblower process is broken.

All of that said, my point is still the same. I would have much more faith in his statements if he had run to a congress person, even if not "the appropriate" one, and released that information.

But selling the info to the Guardian and then running to China makes all of his "noble" efforts suspect to me.


1) No sale was involved

2) "Running to China" as an epithet is stupid

3) Congress members who knew about this were not allowed to speak about it, so the idea that that would help is literally retarded thinking.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:37 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
literally



/inigo on
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
/inigo off

(Okay, you don't keep using that word.)

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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Incidentally, Snowden attempted to use legal channels and fled the country as a result of predictable outcomes: Obama has sought criminal charges against more whistle blowers than any other president. There were at least 26 such prosecutions during his first year in office. The Administrative redefinition of "Covered" Federal Employees is entirely at the Executive's discretion; it is an abuse of Executive privilege, and said redefinition occurred within 30 days of Obama taking office.

But, you know, the duplicity of this President and his handlers is an established FACT at this point; it's nothing you can reasonably argue against. The Affordable Care Act is a primary example: a punitive fee became an incentivizing tax ONLY during the last day of oral arguments before the Supreme Court. More to the point, Obama's willingness to institute via executive fiat any agenda legislation that fails to pass indicates his complete disregard for the rule of law and systems of checks and balances in place in this nation.

Snowden has handled himself poorly and is not a hero; but his actions were driven by the observable consequences of attempting to hold Obama accountable for his government and its policies.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:06 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Incidentally, Snowden attempted to use legal channels and fled the country as a result of predictable outcomes: Obama has sought criminal charges against more whistle blowers than any other president.


Can you provide a cite or link for either/both of these claims?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:09 pm 
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-1 ... owers.html

It's one of those things; the mainstream media refuses to cover any of his broken promises. The mainstream media refuses to admit already very real impacts of the Affordable Care Act. And, sadly, you keep apologizing for this president.

He's a bad demagogue.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Liberals traded my civil liberties for health insurance.

Conservatives aren't any better, because they're the ones who supplied the tools.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Liberals traded my civil liberties for health insurance.

Conservatives aren't any better, because they're the ones who supplied the tools.
No doubt.

People need to get past false populism and fractious politics; we're Americans. It's time we started acting that way.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
Do you guys honestly believe that if Snowden expressed his concerns to his superiors or to Congress, they would have listened? That this information would have been made public?


Yes. There's endless political mileage to be had there, being the Congressman that let this be known. In any case, the purpose of whistleblowing isn't to create public outrage, it's to deal with the issue. You can't just claim Congress would never do anything about it based on nothing more than your own stereotypes of how Congress acts. You're just speculating, then asking people if they "honestly believe" something contrary to your speculation. It's the height of well-poisoning.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:56 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Liberals traded my civil liberties for health insurance.

Conservatives aren't any better, because they're the ones who supplied the tools.


Yo, I got mad agreement props on this one, dog.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Khross wrote:
People need to get past false populism and fractious politics; we're Americans. It's time we started acting that way.


In solidarity with this statement, I will drive through McDonald's on my way home to watch some sitcoms.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
People need to get past false populism and fractious politics; we're Americans. It's time we started acting that way.


In solidarity with this statement, I will drive through McDonald's on my way home to watch some sitcomsreality TV.


FTFY

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
People need to get past false populism and fractious politics; we're Americans. It's time we started acting that way.


In solidarity with this statement, I will drive through McDonald's on my way home to watch some sitcomsreality TV.


FTFY


And my wife is watching the season finale of the bachelorette. I blame you.

/headdesk /headdesk /headdesk


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:04 am 
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Don't feel bad, my wife loves that **** too.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
So there are fairly clear and legal paths to take. If they work or not is a whole other conversation. I'll even completely accept that the whistleblower process is broken.

All of that said, my point is still the same. I would have much more faith in his statements if he had run to a congress person, even if not "the appropriate" one, and released that information.

But selling the info to the Guardian and then running to China makes all of his "noble" efforts suspect to me.


If they work or not is absolutely central to this conversation.

I think you've become confused by so many layers.

Should the people who use democratic systems of government be informed on the actions of their government in order to be informed voters? Should they have access to information that said government is breaking its contract with those people and lying to them about it? Yes or no.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:26 am 
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/inc shitstorm

Glenn Greenwald's partner detained at Heathrow airport for nine hours
David Miranda, partner of Guardian interviewer of whistleblower Edward Snowden, questioned under Terrorism Act

The partner of the Guardian journalist who has written a series of stories revealing mass surveillance programmes by the US National Security Agency was held for almost nine hours on Sunday by UK authorities as he passed through London's Heathrow airport on his way home to Rio de Janeiro. David Miranda, who lives with Glenn Greenwald, was returning from a trip to Berlin when he was stopped by officers at 8.05am and informed that he was to be questioned under schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000. The controversial law, which applies only at airports, ports and border areas, allows officers to stop, search, question and detain individuals.

The 28-year-old was held for nine hours, the maximum the law allows before officers must release or formally arrest the individual. According to official figures, most examinations under schedule 7 – over 97% – last less than an hour, and only one in 2,000 people detained are kept for more than six hours. Miranda was released, but officials confiscated electronics equipment including his mobile phone, laptop, camera, memory sticks, DVDs and games consoles.

Since 5 June, Greenwald has written a series of stories revealing the NSA's electronic surveillance programmes, detailed in thousands of files passed to him by whistleblower Edward Snowden. The Guardian has also published a number of stories about blanket electronic surveillance by Britain's GCHQ, also based on documents from Snowden. While in Berlin, Miranda had visited Laura Poitras, the US film-maker who has also been working on the Snowden files with Greenwald and the Guardian. The Guardian paid for Miranda's flights.

"This is a profound attack on press freedoms and the news gathering process," Greenwald said. "To detain my partner for a full nine hours while denying him a lawyer, and then seize large amounts of his possessions, is clearly intended to send a message of intimidation to those of us who have been reporting on the NSA and GCHQ. The actions of the UK pose a serious threat to journalists everywhere. But the last thing it will do is intimidate or deter us in any way from doing our job as journalists. Quite the contrary: it will only embolden us more to continue to report aggressively."

A spokesperson for the Guardian said: "We were dismayed that the partner of a Guardian journalist who has been writing about the security services was detained for nearly nine hours while passing through Heathrow airport. We are urgently seeking clarification from the British authorities."

A spokesperson for Scotland Yard said: "At 08:05 on Sunday, 18 August a 28-year-old man was detained at Heathrow airport under schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000. He was not arrested. He was subsequently released at 17:00."

Scotland Yard refused to be drawn on why Miranda was stopped using powers that enable police officers to stop and question travellers at UK ports and airports. There was no comment from the Home Office in relation to the detention. However, there was surprise in political circles and elsewhere. Labour MP Tom Watson said he was shocked at the news and called for it to be made clear if any ministers were involved in authorising the detention. He said: "It's almost impossible, even without full knowledge of the case, to conclude that Glenn Greenwald's partner was a terrorist suspect. I think that we need to know if any ministers knew about this decision, and exactly who authorised it. The clause in this act is not meant to be used as a catch-all that can be used in this way."

Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act has been widely criticised for giving police broad powers under the guise of anti-terror legislation to stop and search individuals without prior authorisation or reasonable suspicion – setting it apart from other police powers. Those stopped have no automatic right to legal advice and it is a criminal offence to refuse to co-operate with questioning under schedule 7, which critics say is a curtailment of the right to silence. Last month the UK government said it would reduce the maximum period of detention to six hours and promised a review of the operation on schedule 7 amid concerns it unfairly targets minority groups and gives individuals fewer legal protections than they would have if detained at a police station.

The government of Brazil issued a statement in which it expressed its "grave concern" over the detention of one of its citizens and the use of anti-terror legislation. It said: "This measure is without justification since it involves an individual against whom there are no charges that can legitimate the use of that legislation. The Brazilian government expects that incidents such as the one that happened to the Brazilian citizen today are not repeated."

Widney Brown, Amnesty International's senior director of international law and policy, said: "It is utterly improbable that David Michael Miranda, a Brazilian national transiting through London, was detained at random, given the role his partner has played in revealing the truth about the unlawful nature of NSA surveillance. David's detention was unlawful and inexcusable. He was detained under a law that violates any principle of fairness and his detention shows how the law can be abused for petty, vindictive reasons. There is simply no basis for believing that David Michael Miranda presents any threat whatsoever to the UK government. The only possible intent behind this detention was to harass him and his partner, Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, for his role in analysing the data released by Edward Snowden."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
People need to get past false populism and fractious politics; we're Americans. It's time we started acting that way.


In solidarity with this statement, I will drive through McDonald's on my way home to watch some sitcoms.


We just need to find a way to rescue France again. That will get us back on track.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:29 am 
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Very "In the name of the father" of Britain. Again.

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