The Glade 4.0

Does anyone actually have data to support the conclusion that school employees who intervene in a reasonable manner to stop a fight frequently get sued and/or prosecuted for it? Honestly, I'm guessing that's more of an urban legend with a few anecdotal examples to lend credence rather than a genuinely common problem.

Anyone remember the Penn state thread where I said I wouldn't help someone getting beaten to death if it would permanently end my career, and then got called the scum of the universe for like two pages straight? Yeah.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't remember. Also, I wouldn't call you scum, either. I would call the police/security/whoever's job it is to deal with it, but I would not directly intervene. The only time I would directly intervene is if it was happening to a family member or a dog.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

Rings a bell.

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Lawyers and juries get a lot of time to second guess my actions. Far longer than I get before I have to decide to act or not. Combine that with an overly litigious society, obvious social /political opinions influencing cases, racial aspects, etc... yeah im not doing anything but whats in the manual as required.

The driver is in a crap position. He knows that hes only somewhat safe behind company policy. I dont blame him one bit for how he handled it.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

For the kid, not for you.



That's a shame. I wouldn't. Of course, I also want nothing to do with public schools or driving a bus.



First, you shouldn't have to "convince them" of that. Second, it wasn't your kid being attacked, and I think it's fair to say people react differently if it's family.


Ultimately, for me, it's not about the lawsuit. It's about the criminal charges and investigation.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Do hate crime laws exist? Is violence against a minor a heightened charge to regular assault?

That's all I need to know, rather than if it's a "common problem." We have a society that wants to persecute people like me for being good samaritans. I would therefore not choose to be a good samaritan.

People follow incentives, RD, whether the incentive is common or not.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

True, but there is such a thing as overreacting to incentives due to a combination of excessive risk aversion and falling for media hype and false cultural narratives. Personally, I think failing to intervene in a situation like this out of fear of lawsuits and prosecution is a very clear example of that. (Incidentally, I also think a statement like "we have a society that wants to persecute people like me for being good samaritans" is also a false cultural narrative that's disturbingly common among conservative, white men thanks to media hype from talk radio, Fox News, PJ Media, etc.) And besides, there are incentives going in the other direction too. Last I checked, the driver was on administrative leave pending an investigation, and I can virtually guarantee that the parents of the victim are going to sue and will be much more likely to win and/or get a big settlement than the parents of the attackers would have been.

To be honest, though, I don't think the issue here is really that the driver was afraid of the legal consequences if he intervened; I think the issue is that he's been conditioned - both formally during his training as a bus driver and informally by our increasing cultural presumption against self-help - to instinctively remain passive and wait for authorities to arrive and handle things. Of course, it's also possible (probable?) that we're reading too much into this and the dude's just a coward who was so afraid of getting physically hurt that he sat there and let a 13-year old get beaten right in front of him.

What if he was a 5'3" pixie-like woman?

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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In my view: still morally obligated to intervene, but based on the size differential (the driver's gender, in and of itself, isn't relevant to me here) more understandable/forgivable if she doesn't. Basically, my attitude is that you shouldn't take a job that involves being responsible for the safety of others, particularly people who can't adequately protect themselves (e.g., children, the elderly, medical patients, etc.) if you aren't prepared to risk your own safety in order to protect that of your charges.

As to the first part of this paragraph: I'd agree with you if I didn't have several friends who've either lost their jobs or been charged for various situations that, while not perfectly resembling this, hold enough similarities for me to strongly believe in the fact that it happens.

As to the second, that's what parent do: sue. He followed the policy, he'll be fine.



Probably.

Humans are naturally sheep, and policies enforcing or encouraging sheepiness are rampant. Which, like I mentioned, is where "people follow incentives."



I wouldn't call somebody unwilling to undertake 3-1 odds in a confined space while unarmed to be a coward.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

If bus drivers are now supposed to be security guards, they should be armed and better paid.

They don't have any responsibility for your safety on the bus, IMO, except as it extends to their own driving.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

One needn't be armed to be responsible for protecting others from assault. Being unarmed just increases the range of situations in which non-intervention would be reasonable.


Yeah, I disagree. I think they're responsible for the general safety of the kids in their charge, just like a baby-sitter, a daycare worker, a camp counselor, a teacher, or anyone else who assumes temporary care, custody and control of kids. It' just part of the job description, and always has been as far as I know.

Is protecting the occupants of the bus from assault spelled out as one of the job duties, here? "Driver" generally doesn't carry that connotation.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

64 year old man versus 3 15 year olds... I feel like I've seen the ending to this one before...

Oh yeah here it is:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/16/us/illinois-beating-death

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Why shouldn't somebody be armed to protect others from assault?



I probably should have said "AFAIK" instead of "IMO." I meant to state what I understood the job to be. Bus drivers are bus drivers. Not security, daycare, etc.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Not sure if it's spelled out in the contract, of course, but I would argue that "bus driver" and "school bus driver" generally have different connotations in terms of expected duties. Also, any time people start talking about whether something is technically one of the enumerated duties of a job, I kind of roll my eyes. In my opinion, any function that's reasonably related to one's core duties is an implied part of every employment agreement, and even completely unrelated functions are to be expected on occasion as well.

Dude, WTF, Trayvon-hating-racist? Everybody knows hitting somebody's head on the concrete can't cause a major injury.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Sure, I agree.

Security guard is so far out of line of the expected duties for the pay, training, and equipment of the driver as to be just "right out." Because that's basically what you're asking them to do as part of their job function.

Edit: And, I think I missed this, but if this was a school bus (which now I realize it must be for them to all be juveniles), I would MOST CERTAINLY not intervene in any way with any fight, ever.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Depends on the context. It's not always necessary to be armed to prevent/halt an assault, and there are times when the risks of arming the person outweigh the risks of not arming them. Assaults in school-related settings almost never require an armed response to break things up, so the risks of accidental or unnecessary shootings are too high to justify arming school employees.

I have the opposite view, in that I think general responsibility for the kids' safety is a core function of every school employee, so watered-down versions of everything from security guard to firefighter to EMT are part of the job.

Watching the video would help clear up some arguments here. The driver was larger than the 3 boys. It was a school bus. Apparently he may be charged by the DA for his inaction.

Except not.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20 ... us-beating

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Edit: REDACTED after ninja'd by Hopwin.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Your view is contrary to employment law, union contracts, and precedent.

Only certain school individuals are responsible for security, and most schools train teachers to stay out of all those other duties as much as possible.

No, I have no other sources except all of my family members in the NEA (including some formerly-high level NEA officials, various school boards, friends and family who are teachers, and their experience. So yes, anecdotal, but a large sampling size.


Edit: "Case law" and "precedent" are synonyms, so I cut for redundancy.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine