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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:00 pm 
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i blame the rogues and wizards.

It's always the DPS' fault :p


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:00 pm 
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I just want to point out that Rift has a 4th role and it works out just fine there. You need 2 in a 20 man raid and you can even queue for instances as a support character(with shorter queue times than DPS) even though the role isn't actually used in the 5 man instances. Then again, Rift has the whole "all classes can do (almost) everything" with that changing in the very near future when they are adding new souls to fill in roles for classes that don't have them yet(rogue/warrior healers, mage tanks and cleric support). The point being that support is an embraced role that needs to be filled so you aren't just stuck with tank/healer/dps.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Midgen wrote:
Playing SWTOR, with 14+ level 55's now, I chuckle every time I see someone complaining about how hard it is to level in that game.

14? Wow. I say "Wow." not because it's hard, but because I can't fathom not getting so utterly bored in the process... even with double xp weekends and cash shop boosts, that's still a lot of repeat planetary questing, isn't it? ;)


There are a lot of ways to level in SWTOR besides doing planetary missions. PvP, Flashpoints, Space Missions, admiring yourself in the mirror, running laps around fleet, etc...

That said, the it can get boring and grindy. Honestly though, where I struggle is not in getting to 55, it's trying to gear 14 of them and their companions in anything reasonable. I have three or four that I play fairly regularly, but will break out the odd alt for a change of pace.

BTW, since we are talking about swtor and the 'holy trinity', the new flashpoints that came in the last patch are designed in such a way that tanks are not needed or required in the Group Finder.... at least in story mode. I haven't tried them, so I can only assume there are some other mechanics involved where puzzle solving and surviving mechanics are the key to winning, and not just absorbing/healing/dealing damage.

I plan to try them out this weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Everyone in EQN will be a hybrid. They say that one single class is completely viable, but I don't think that people will actually be able to stop themselves from multiclassing. I know I wont be able to. I can think of like 10+ different ranger builds alone. Not to mention other classes with ranger abilities.


I can see a character in EQN being a hybrid between the available classes, but pursuing a "pure" emphasis on tanking, healing, DPS, or support. Hybrid can mean more than one thing.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:00 am 
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There is a reason why WoW moved the holy trinity concept to tank, healer, and damage. As mentioned in my previous post, Tigole had a huge hate-on for the enchanter. It was not EQ that gave us that holy trinity, it was WoW.

All of the debuff abilities are total **** in WoW, or else they're on the wrong people. The warlock debuffs are of dubious use since they lock you out of your damage dealing curse and aren't effective enough to justify their use most of the time. Sunder armor is a great debuff, but it's on a damage dealer or a tank that you were going to bring anyway. Buff abilities work similarly. They're just not very impressive compared to the time and attention you have to devote to keeping them up. The closest thing you have to a buffer is a shaman, and their totems are kind of lackluster for that. WoW's designers made a concerted effort to ensure that support abilities were mutually exclusive with damage and healing abilities, and weren't good enough to justify using. Since WoW is now the template, the support class simply does not exist for the vast majority of players.

The thing about it is, those support abilities suck for PvP. Not because they aren't good, but quite the opposite. Being rooted or snared sucks. Being mezzed sucks. Being slowed sucks. It's like in Dungeons & Dragons. Charm Person is a great spell, until you get hit with it. Most players would rather get killed than charmed. Most of the stuff that's cool to do that isn't tanking, healing, or dealing damage is all stuff that you don't want to have happen to you. In a game that's supposed to have PvP as a big component, those abilities need to go, or else they have to be weakened to the point where "just deal damage instead" is a viable alternative. Otherwise, somebody is sitting there not having any fun because they're just mezzed all the time.

Where the GW2 comment comes up is that there seems to be a big push to get rid of the holy trinity, and the current plan for how to do that is to remove the healer altogether. It's no fun waiting on a healer, so let's just get rid of healers. Well guys, removing an archetype is what got us the holy trinity. Removing another archetype isn't going to make things better. Now if you replace healing with support, you've still got a holy trinity, and you've still got people sitting around waiting for a certain type of character. We're just waiting on a support caster now, instead of a healer. Ultimately, you're going to have certain needs that have to be met regardless of what the paradigm is for the game.

Judging by what I've seen in this thread, EQNext seems to be trying to add options rather than removing the healer. Now, that might not be the case, as I'm not following it as closely as some of you, but that's a good thing. What they do seem to be doing is trying to focus on self-sufficiency for the players, and while that's a way to go, it doesn't promote the sort of community that EQ had. Because I could pretty much take care of myself solo, or in pickup groups in WoW, I didn't find a new crew to run with. I played with people I already knew, and I don't need to pay $15 a month to do that. We can set up an online game of Diablo II for that.

The idea of class, server, and guild loyalties came up a few posts back, and that's the root of the discussion. We have nothing in common with one another, and no real reason to get along or like each other, many of us don't get along and don't like each other, and yet I am perfectly willing to play a game with Diamondeye and Montegue because we all wore ivy-etched armor. When the **** paladins start talking ****, those two guys have my back. That ranger solidarity is lost if everyone is customizing themselves with multiple classes. Furthermore, that sort of broad multi-classing speaks to the, "We want everyone to be able to do everything," school of thought on game design. You are defined as much by what you can't do as what you can, and the fun of playing these massively multiplayer games comes from the interaction between two players around the fuzzy edges of what each one can't do.

The solution to the problem is not to make people more self-sufficient, but to make the healing and support roles more fun to play. There simply weren't enough healers to go around in WoW because everyone wanted to play damage dealers and see big numbers all over the place. Having support classes alleviates the need for healers by making encounters more manageable. In EQ, people would play druids and shaman, because those classes could be exciting. Unlike WoW, where you had to pick a spec and were either a healer or a blaster, EQ allowed you to be both at the same time. The main issue with EQ was that people insisted on clerics for the ability to resurrect back lost experience, and that problem is easy to solve. Experience and level loss isn't fun for players, anyway, and I think game designers understand that now.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:34 am 
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The people made EQ. WoW was -is- so hard to break into by comparison. It's populated by silent strangers it seems. When I was in guilds nobody seemed to talk. Even today I could login to Rori, /Gu hi and the odds are it'd be like walking into Cheers, unless its an absolute dead time.

I'm not sure any game can capture that kind of magic.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:18 pm 
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I know that my feelings were part of a great majority on the crucible.

It wasn't very exciting being brought along solely for torpor and stat buffs that were so marginally useful that they truly weren't worth the mana cost.

This is why I rarely raided or grouped.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:17 pm 
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As with most roles in EQ, if the people in your guild did it right, you wouldn’t even know they did much at all. Healing is, and always will have a special spot in my heart. What made EQ healers special wasn’t that they could heal, but that they could work together and pull rabbits out of their hats when needed.

In any single raid, you’ll have a chain healing going, with the paladins tapped into your channel in cast a Loh as needed, with druids lined up with their extra turbo HOT abilities (in an organised chain to avoid double up), with pre-instructions on who to switch in/out if raid rez was needed. Which necro was assigned to whom to provide mana support (so no double up happens). That’s on top of self-mana management.

In my experience, healers were probably the most close nit group when it comes to working and understanding the way each other played. You had to cover for each other, account for death and mana drains, keep an eye on each other’s mana and understand the healing abilities of each other. At worst, you had to pull on fumes in order to gain that cleric the extra 10s they need to pull off a full heal.

No other game brought together the sense of closeness and community for me when playing a healer. In wow, healers had their dedicated roles raid heal or main tank heal, that’s it… there is no covering, no working together and certainly no accountability like you did in EQ.

I’m looking forward to EQnext and will probably be playing a healing class. Having a wood elf druid available to play would probably be the only thing in the world right now to convince me to buy a new system.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:27 pm 
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So I've been late getting to this thread. Sounds like lots of potential here, although a couple of concerns as well.

In the end it will be like all the other MMOs out there and it will depend on how it's implemented.

That said, it will be nice to wander around Norrath again.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Numbuk wrote:
I know that my feelings were part of a great majority on the crucible.

It wasn't very exciting being brought along solely for torpor and stat buffs that were so marginally useful that they truly weren't worth the mana cost.

This is why I rarely raided or grouped.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


I could potentially understand raiding, tho Shaman slows were the best in the game. But grouping? One of my favorite grouping partners was a shaman. His wife played a cleric and between the 3 of us there wasn't much we couldn't kill. He could slow and dot the **** out of stuff and I'd still hold aggro tanking it. Because it was slowed the cleric could easily keep me standing and we all dps'd it down. Great fun.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Aye shamans were probably one of the best classes to group with and I was always bummed that there were so few of them at higher levels.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Numbuk wrote:
I know that my feelings were part of a great majority on the crucible.

It wasn't very exciting being brought along solely for torpor and stat buffs that were so marginally useful that they truly weren't worth the mana cost.

This is why I rarely raided or grouped.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


I could potentially understand raiding, tho Shaman slows were the best in the game. But grouping? One of my favorite grouping partners was a shaman. His wife played a cleric and between the 3 of us there wasn't much we couldn't kill. He could slow and dot the **** out of stuff and I'd still hold aggro tanking it. Because it was slowed the cleric could easily keep me standing and we all dps'd it down. Great fun.


Shaman slows were the best in the game, hands down. I agree 100%. But if you recall, large scale raiding generally pulled one mob at a time. And more than one shaman casting torpor was superfluous since it didn't stack.

I guess you guys are right when it came to duo-ing. I did feel fairly useful there without feeling like I was some D&D 3.0 background dancer to the overpowered class's star.

I just never personally duo-ed much for various reasons. But yeah, you're right, when I did it was pretty spectacular. I'm just a bit more antisocial most of the time in games, I guess. Not all the time, but probably moreso than not (there are deep-rooted psychological reasons for my anti-social online behaviour, but I know that's not an excuse).

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:37 pm 
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You know, shamans healed and removed poison/disease/curse counters as well(and now corruption counters). You didn't bring them just for buffs and slow and you never did. Sure, they wouldn't be main healing on a raid, but tanks weren't the only ones taking damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I love me some shamans ;-p


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Numbuk may have quit before the disease, poison, and curse mechanic really became a thing. Disease and poison existed, as well as the removal spells, but those mechanics weren't widely used in encounters until curses started popping up in Shadows of Luclin. Numbuk talks about buffs that weren't worth the mana, which sounds like he never played with Focus or Avatar. At the very least, it sounds like he stopped playing shortly after those spells hit. I'm almost positive he never played with the post-PoP upgrades to those spell lines, that added all the miscellaneous stuff like accuracy, strikethrough, combat effects, and so forth. I'm dating him from launch to mid-to-late Velious. (For instance, he talks about Torpor, but has forgotten that was the heal over time spell, while the slow was Togor's Insects or Turgur's Insects, depending on what level you were. It's clearly been a very long time since the 'buk has played EQ.) He raises some complaints that were very valid complaints for that period of the game. Stuff like strength, dexterity, and agility was mostly for e-peen, as they didn't have much of an effect on your performance in combat.

There is a challenge to support classes. If they're really rolling, and you've got a guy who's really good, they make encounters a lot easier. If you respond to that by making encounters harder, you make them absolutely vital, but if you respond by making encounters immune, you make them worthless. Honestly, it's okay in a group game for those support classes to be absolutely vital. You want to have a reason to play things other than healer, tank, and damage, after all.

A support class isn't for everybody, either. Support buffs and debuffs were the shaman's gig, and if you didn't want to do that, the class wasn't really for you. Now, unfortunately a lot of people were pretty much locked into playing a shaman by the time they found that out, and that really sucks. I do have some sympathy for that, but that's a separate issue you've hashed out on boards before. If you don't want to be the support character making other people better, if you want to be the guy in the limelight, then maybe the shaman simply wasn't right for you. EQ had thirteen classes to start, and fifteen by the time EQ2 and WoW caused a mass exodus. (I'm not sure what they're up to now, and that's sort of beside the point). With that many classes to choose from, it's okay to have a few that you just aren't interested in.

Make no mistake, there are players who like playing that character. There are people who like being the person who makes everyone else shine. I don't kill the boss, I strip some defenses and put it in a position to die easy. I don't heal the tank, I just make him tougher and the boss weaker. Then I've got some token healing and damage abilities so that I've got something to do once I've laid down all my buffs and debuffs. That is a character that appeals to some players. Look at Lydiaa talking about how she liked playing a healer. Designers need to listen to her as well. They can't just listen to Lenas going on about how he hates holy trinity.

In EQ there was little reason to have multiple shaman on a raid, especially when bosses were generally immune to slow. The problem there wasn't that there was no reason to bring more than one shaman, but that you had 72 man raids. Early raids to Hate and Fear were generally four or five groups. That's 24-30 people. There were 13 classes in those days. If you ran four groups, it was mathematically impossible to have two of every class as that required 26 people, and four groups added up to 24. There would be classes who only had one representative come along, and usually several. It was okay to only need one shaman. Even at five groups, which was 30 people, and therefore you expected to average two of every class, it was perfectly reasonable to just not have the second shaman. Some classes were just more popular than others, and maybe (I have no idea anymore) shaman were one of the less popular classes. It wasn't really until you got to 40+ man raids that it became a problem that there wasn't anything for the second and third shaman to be doing.

So it can be tough to design for support classes, considering the players might only need to bring one of that class along, but it isn't impossible. As long as you're mindful of how many classes you have vs. the number of players you're designing encounters around, you can make it work. If you have ten classes, and a few of them don't place nicely with other members of the same class (like two shaman), then you design your encounters around fewer than twenty players.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Make no mistake, there are players who like playing that character. There are people who like being the person who makes everyone else shine. I don't kill the boss, I strip some defenses and put it in a position to die easy. I don't heal the tank, I just make him tougher and the boss weaker. Then I've got some token healing and damage abilities so that I've got something to do once I've laid down all my buffs and debuffs. That is a character that appeals to some players. Look at Lydiaa talking about how she liked playing a healer. Designers need to listen to her as well. They can't just listen to Lenas going on about how he hates holy trinity.


I don't hate the holy trinity, I just think that it's something that came about due to rudimentary AI, and is something unnecessary in today's game design. EQN's design still allows for dedicated healer/tank type builds, but the mechanics behind them are going to change. Gone are the days of keeping a mob in the corner while 50% of your raid force goes AFK, gone are the days of "/raid CH to >>>> %T <<<< Cleric_03 you're next!" and I think that's ultimately a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Most of my time was vanilla and Kunark, that's correct. I bought Luclin and played briefly (really brief, like a week). And your'e right. Togor's Insects is what I was thinking about. You're also correct that I don't recall much in the way of removing curses or poisons.

When I played:

-Buffs were not worth the mana cost or the time needed to swap it into your spell bar (because you could only have 6 - 8 spells you could cast at any given time). Non casters always saw mana as "free" without taking into account that my *time* was not free, and regenerating mana and changing spells was quite time consuming.
- Cannidancing was an effective method for getting mana back quickly (with the aid of Torpor, now that you refreshed my memory), "quickly" being a relative term.
- Stacking poisons was the best method of doing damage per mana, diseases were not worth their cost since you rarely got a full mana return on them.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Play EQMac with Sui and I, Numbuk. Relieve the cannidance glory days.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:42 pm 
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My overall point with that was to provide a time frame, and therefore a reference, for the various comments you raised. You're talking about "back in the day," and I remember how that was. A lot of the stuff that I remember making shaman great were after you had left.

Yeah, back when you had to load up four separate spells to buff strength, stamina, dexterity, and agility, and those spells only last 30 minutes, they were crap. Except stamina, because that had a pretty sizable hit point boost. The other three blew donkey balls.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Play EQMac with Sui and I, Numbuk. Relieve the cannidance glory days.


I have fond memories of the game, despite its flaws. I don't know if I could ever go back, and if I did I don't think it would be the same.

As much as I rag on some of the mechanics there has never been an item more satisfying that I've received, in any video game since, than the Totemic Helm. Camping that glacier bear was a 4 day marathon with a total of about 6 hours of sleep. Making sure I was the only shaman there. Making sure that another player wasn't going to KS the bear (if it ever popped). Making sure the wandering level 45 lich didn't kill me.

And when I saw my wolf suddenly point in the direction of a mob around the corner, and when I saw that mob was this giant white bear, I cannot describe the adrenaline rush I had. It was half panic, half excitement. I had to kill the thing FAST before anyone else could show up and get him. I was thinking so unclearly that I forgot half of my rotation, and even the message I sent to the guild looked something like "THREREH BEATTRRRR!"

No video game victory has come even close to that, not by a mile. It's possible that it's a similar psychological concept where if you starve a person for a long period of time, the first morsel of terrible food they receive tastes better than anything they've ever had. Regardless, it was great.

Even something like that I don't think could be replicated again for me. Not anymore. If you're having a great time, I am truly happy for you. I wish you guys the best.

But I will try EQ Next. Even if Numbuk can't speak like he used to. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
My overall point with that was to provide a time frame, and therefore a reference, for the various comments you raised. You're talking about "back in the day," and I remember how that was. A lot of the stuff that I remember making shaman great were after you had left.

Yeah, back when you had to load up four separate spells to buff strength, stamina, dexterity, and agility, and those spells only last 30 minutes, they were crap. Except stamina, because that had a pretty sizable hit point boost. The other three blew donkey balls.


Yeah, and I was confirming it. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

It is good to know that shamans got a bit better later.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Numbuk wrote:
And when I saw my wolf suddenly point in the direction of a mob around the corner, and when I saw that mob was this giant white bear, I cannot describe the adrenaline rush I had. It was half panic, half excitement. I had to kill the thing FAST before anyone else could show up and get him. I was thinking so unclearly that I forgot half of my rotation, and even the message I sent to the guild looked something like "THREREH BEATTRRRR!"


It can still happen, brother. I **** you not, that scenario happened to me just yesterday playing on EQMac.

Back when I played the original Lenas, the only piece of Ivy Etched (lvl ~30 quest armor) that I never got was the leggings. I never got them because they required a boat ride to the Ocean of Tears, and a potentially long camp on a dangerous island filled with Cyclopes.

Yesterday I log into EQM and don't have a lot of time to group, so I decide I'm going to work on some old school quests. Ivy Etched comes to mind and I immediately decide that I'm going to work on the leggings that I never got. I took half an hour or so to go through Freeport, wait for the boat, and eventually make my way to the island. I hide and sit down 20 yards from the camp site, chatting on and off, alt-tabbing while I check track occasionally.

Then it happened, 5 minutes after I get to the island, a mob that eluded me for years was standing right in front of me. I rudely broke off my conversation with the person sitting on my couch, and finally put an end to a quest I started 13 years ago.

Felt good, man.


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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:51 pm 
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I never found that shaman were all that unpopular; it always seemed to me more that there were an assload of druids all over the place that made shaman and clerics look uncommon by comparison.

For a long time early on, the first year or two of the game, mages and necromancers were all over the place. Like druids, that was because they were powerful solo classes. Then, once raiding really became a thing for people other than a few of the most hardcore players out there, necros and mages dropped way off in popularity. Pets weren't wanted on raids, and neither class did impressive damage without the pet compared to Wizards. Enchanters became more popular when A) the playerbase figured out what they were supposed to do and B) just how powerful what they did really was.

Coro is right, the enchanter does not fit into PVP because either what he does is really effective (and no fun for everyone else) or else what he does is inconsistently or infrequently effective (balanced, but no fun for the enchanter). The enchanter also creates the problem, much like Warrior defensive discipline does, that encounters have to be balanced around him. If the enchanter can mez everything and slow everything, he either trivializes every encounter or else encounters are impossible without him. Similarly, dropping mob damage by 30% means every encounter had to be based on a warrior tanking it. Cleric CH did the same thing; encounters had to be based on clerics healing the tank which made them too hard for druids and shaman to fill the same role (although they didn't have it as bad since both could do regens, and later on got mini-CHs of their own).

Anyhow, the point is that a lot of classes in EQ had vices. Scratch that, practically every class had an annoying vice of some sort. Warriors? Couldn't really do anything but tank in a group; they could barely get to the group unescorted. In some cases, the vice the class had was the people playing it. Enchanters were a bad offender there, so were druids and rogues. Rogues tended to attract anyone that A) wanted to play melee B) wanted to tank and C) wanted to use their DPS output to loot-whore. Druids tended to attract people who wanted to kite mobs to max level then couldn't find their *** with both hands in a raid, and enchanters tended to attract (and in some cases, create) control freaks who thought everything revolved around them. I noticed distinct changes in the behavior and manner of at least two people that switched to Enchanter.

Not that everyone, or even most people playing those classes were like that, but when those personalities appeared, they tended to gravitate to those classes. You'd find some of the "I want to solo my way to raiding" types in mage and necromancer, but not as many because they weren't as handy on raids as a healer, and also didn't teleport around.

EQ had a lot of class issues that people would talk about as "balance" but they weren't really balance issues. Some were, but necromancer pets not being wanted on raids wasn't an issue of balance; it was an issue of the AI of the time. Had the pets been more controllable and less prone to causing the problems they caused, the class would have been just fine for balance. Monks weren't unbalanced; the gear they had was unbalanced, and in any case all of the classes were too weak relative to the mobs for the first 4 years of the game. It was too easy to just get jumped, trained, and massacred in a level-appropriate zone. There simply weren't enough anti-frustration measures in place.

Anyhow, I don't think most people want to get rid of the trinity, just make it less holy, so the Ranger and the Shaman can be just as "needed" as everyone else. It's the same discussion in TESO; people want to be able to build a character to the theme they want and have that build work. not just a few cookie-cutters that stick completely to one point of the triangle. Every single build doesn't need to be equally good; in any game with character customization you'll have failbuilds. Failbuild, though, shouldn't be "failing to optimize as a onetrick pony".

Also, in regard to getting rid of the healer a la GW2 - If any role is a problem in the trinity, its the tank. Not because being able to take damage is a problem in itself, but because of what that implies. A real tank's role is not to take damage; it is to attack targets with its main gun. The game tank can't really do that though without infringing on the DPS.

But this brings up a problem! Why would a mob attack a character that really isn't a threat (does little damage) in favor of those that do a lot of damage? Human players won't; tanking doesn't work well in pvp, and in games like EVE, if you fight, say, a mixed battlecruiser fleet, the high-damage less resilient ships like Hurricanes will go down before the tougher-but-less-damaging Drakes.

Traditionally, this is answered with taunts. The warrior "taunts" or "generates threat" against an opponent. This is sort of a handwave approach where for some reason the mob, no matter how stupid (and unable to understand speech) it is, or how intelligent (and therefore immune to such tricks) it is, always wants to attack the warrior or paladin first because he called into question the circumstances of its birth. More advanced versions attach a little damage or a debuff to the taunt, but these tend to be trivial in the face of the fact that the mob is still getting fireballed and stabbed in the ***.

A better way needs to be found of making the monster want to attack the guy in the plate mail, who frequently is carrying the biggest sword anyhow, and really ought to be more of an actual threat and not just a "he needs to generate threat so everyone else doesn't get one-shotted" handwave threat.

Ironically, I think the best way to get rid of the tank is actually to keep the tank and get rid of DPS as a separate roll, bringing back the "support character" in his place, or at least just adding the support character back in and then saying "DPS is everyone's responsibility." DPS is what you do when you're not doing anything else. For some people that's almost all the time, for some its rare, and for others its in between. Every character, though, should have something meaningful they do other than deal damage.

That also has the side effect of killing, or at least reducing the impact of, the **** damage meter. If we could get rid of the damage meter, and along with it the "calculate your way to raid victory" thing, we'd be well on our way to new and innovative gaming.

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:27 pm 
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So this guy is an SOE dev:

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 Post subject: Re: EQ Next
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:35 pm 
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I'd play it...as long as it was recognizable as Everquest. Because Everquest Next is not really recognizable as Everquest. They are basically using some names and nothing more. I mean, was there really a need to change the pantheon of gods? Really? Why even call it Everquest at this point when it has nothing to do with Everquest? Even Everquest 2's fan fictiony story and lore makes some sort of connection to Everquest.

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