The Glade 4.0

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/org ... online.pdf

The general conclusion from this study is that the opposite is true.





It's a pretty good read.

A) only if you take the guns away from the criminals, good luck.

B) no, if someone really wants to kill themself, they will find a way. The impulse suicides included.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

For murder, maybe after 50 years, assuming the rate of confiscation of guns from criminals exceeds the rate they're smuggled into the country. Those 50 years would sure suck though as all the criminals would be armed and nobody else would be.

It would definitely reduce suicide though. The vast majority of suicide attempts fail, but gun suicides usually succeed. If you take guns away as an option all the potential suiciders will have to fall back on less-reliable options.

Citation please? I don't see any evidence that lack of guns decreases suicide rates; I see quite a bit of evidence that it doesn't matter. ex: Many countries with much more firearms restrictions have a higher suicide rate than the US.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_suicide_attempt

That lays it out pretty concisely, if you trust wikipedia that is.

Suicidology? Thats a more depressing major than womens studies!

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

As I said, many countries where citizens can't get guns have higher suicide rates.

As wiki said, they'll just try again:

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Since the article pretty much blows the suicide thing out of the water if you actually read it, we can dispense with that. It talks at one point about some idiot that thinks strict government controls of pesticides in Fiji would control suicides there, where either that method or hanging is very common. Basically the same argument as is used for guns.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Okay, but surely these other countries also have other attributing factors in someone's decision to kill themselves, right? Like maybe they live in slums, have a lack of freedoms, or are extremely overworked and underpaid? We don't exactly have people jumping out of high rise buildings on the regular like Foxconn does.

Which pretty much establishes that suicide is not a factor of one particular means of doing it being available.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

What guns do to promote suicide is provide a convenient method. Now, that is specific to handguns. People don't generally kill themselves with rifles and shotguns. Yes, I know Kurt Cobain swallowed the barrel of a 12-gauge, and he is an exception. Killing yourself with a rifle or shotgun is very cumbersome. The appeal of suicide by gun is that it's quick and convenient. That means pistols. I want to put the barrel to my temple or mouth and pull the trigger, I don't want to have to figure out how to get my toe through the trigger guard because my arm isn't long enough to reach while I've got the barrel in my mouth.

This goes further. Something else that has been observed was the effect of proper firearm safety on deterring suicides. Most gun control advocates are unaware that various state and federal laws prohibit the transportation of loaded firearms. If you're taking a firearm across state lines, you have to transport the weapon and the ammunition in separate containers. Firearm safety goes a step further. I don't know how it is for other states, but Missouri Hunter Education training on firearm safety states that firearms should never be loaded in storage. Ammunition should be removed from the chambers and magazines, returned to the box, and stored in a separate safe or closet, or at the very least on a separate shelf. This safety protocol is older than I am. It was added to address concerns of children hurting themselves with Dad's rifle long before gun control advocates ever got up in arms about children accidentally shooting themselves.

Remember when I said the allure of gun suicide was convenience? The simple act of having to put a bullet in the chamber deters the majority of would-be gun suicides. I'm feeling worthless and low, like the world would be better off without me, and I reach into my nightstand for the pistol so that I can end it all. That's how gun suicide works. It is a momentary thought that is able to be carried out because it only takes a moment. If you have to load the gun, you are likely to change your mind.

In the time it takes me to get out the box of ammunition, open it up, and take out a bullet, the thought has passed. I no longer want to kill myself.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

I realize its totally anecdotal, and not really relevant to the discussion, but of the 3 people I've known who successfully committed suicide, two of those three did it with shotgun.

also... http://lostallhope.com/ is a rather frightening site. But according to the site, only 5% of suicide attempts with a shotgun fail. 80% of suicides with a handgun fail.

Why are we comparing suicide rates in other countries where guns are banned with suicide rates in the US? That's just introducing a lot of confounding variables, and there's no point. We can just look within the US. Some households have guns, some don't. Do the ones with guns have higher suicide rates? The answer is a resounding yes.

Sure, there are probably some confounding variables at work here, but they're a lot easier to deal with than comparing different countries with completely different cultures.

This page has a pretty good summary of all the info: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matt ... tter/risk/

That's sort of the point. All those confounding variables are what establish that availability of firearms does not cause or correlate with increased suicide.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I was thinking like South Korea, Japan, France, Taiwan...


That's kind of my point, multiple variables. You can't say that the people who committed suicide "definitely" wouldn't have done so if you only remove one variable.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

mother **** wants to off themselves... not having a gun is not going to change that. They will find a way.

If I decided I wanted to go... I sure as hell would go get a lot of candy... take every pill I could find in my house, drink both my bottles of whiskey, and then eat alll of the sugar. Take a nice hot bath and slit my wrists.

I, myself, have waaaay to much determination not to die to do that however, but killing yourself is not hard if you are really trying to, the people who fail at it... I am convinced are just trying to get attention.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

So not having a gun might prevent those who aren't so committed from succeeding?

Pretty much anythng "might" happen.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Lets's look at just suicide.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in ... ted_States in 2009 there were ~40,000 suicides in a year. Approximately half (20,000) were done with guns. Lets assume we save every one of those people, and they don't try to kill themselves some other Ok, we ban guns and save 20k lives. Why stop there?

In the same year (site http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-dri ... statistics) 13,000 people died of alcohol related crashes. Should we ban Alcohol too?

According to the cdc (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statist ... _mortality) Second hand smoke could be responsible for as many as 49,000 deaths every year. Ooops, its got to go too. Way worse, and those people aren't even trying to kill themselves. You don't have a constitutional right to tobacco either.

Shall I go on?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Banning firearms to reduce murder and suicide would be just about as effective as banning trolling has been on this message board.

This like the statement that heart disease causes 500k "premature" deaths every year. What exactly is a "mature" death? Failure of every organ at the cellular level?

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Just ban suicide.

And murder, too.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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If you outlaw trolling, only outlaws will troll!

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Holy shitsnacks!

Sounds like depressed people are incredibly lazy.

That attitude is probably why a lot of them are depressed, having to deal with people who think mental illness or brain chemical imbalances are just laziness or weakness of character.

In my opinion, this is also why gun owning families have a higher risk of suicide. They're more likely to have "traditional" outlooks and demean their family members' mental illnesses. "God, don't give me that bullshit about OCD. You're not sick. You want to stop counting things? Well stop being a lazy useless goddamn failure and stop counting them."