The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2024 8:27 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:40 pm 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 08428.html

'So this is what starting over looks like. I have a seven-by-seven space with two little desks in it."

Craig Zucker is remarkably good-humored, considering what he's been through over the past year—and the tribulations that lie ahead. He's referring to his office, rented month-to-month in a dilapidated building in a dusty corner of Brooklyn. There is construction all around, graffiti on the brick walls, and unfinished doors and windows.

It's a long way from the Soho digs the 34-year-old used to occupy. Mr. Zucker is the former CEO of Maxfield & Oberton, the small company behind Buckyballs, an office toy that became an Internet sensation in 2009 and went on to sell millions of units before it was banned by the feds last year.
Related Video

Assistant books editor Sohrab Ahmari on how the Consumer Products Safety Commission is destroying a magnet product called “Buckyballs.” Photos: Associated Press

A self-described "serial entrepreneur," Mr. Zucker looks the part with tussled black hair, a scraggly beard and hipster jeans. Yet his casual-Friday outfit does little to subdue his air of ambition and hustle.

Nowadays Mr. Zucker spends most of his waking hours fighting off a vindictive U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission that has set out to punish him for having challenged its regulatory overreach. The outcome of the battle has ramifications far beyond a magnetic toy designed for bored office workers. It implicates bedrock American notions of consumer choice, personal responsibility and limited liability.

It all began while the Ohio native was wrapping up his previous venture, Tap'd NY, "a bottled water company that was purifying New York City tap water and selling it to New Yorkers as the local, honest bottled-water alternative." You read that right: Mr. Zucker persuaded New Yorkers to pay for rebranded tap water.

Jake Bronstein, Mr. Zucker's marketing director at Tap'd NY, was at the time the proprietor of a blog called Zoomdoggle. "He would produce eight posts a day," Mr. Zucker recalls, "one for each hour of the workday: games, jokes, adult fun. What Jake wanted to do was to find a product that would fit perfectly with that audience."

The answer came in the form of neodymium magnets. These small, powerful rare-earth magnets can be stacked like Legos, stretched and used to make infinite shapes. Maxfield & Oberton, the company Messrs. Zucker and Bronstein eventually formed, packaged the magnets and called them "Buckyballs," after the American architect and futurist Buckminster Fuller.

"In March of 2009, we ordered 100 sets of magnets from China. We literally put our last $1,000 each in the business," Mr. Zucker says. At first the company filled a few hundred orders a day on its own website. But then Buckyballs made their way into the blogosphere. "Then very, very quickly other websites were calling to buy the product and resell it. We realized we had a really great brand."



In August 2009, Maxfield & Oberton demonstrated Buckyballs at the New York Gift Show; 600 stores signed up to sell the product. By 2010, the company had built a distribution network of 1,500 stores, including major retailers like Urban Outfitters and Brookstone. People magazine in 2011 named Buckyballs one of the five hottest trends of the year, and in 2012 it made the cover of Brookstone's catalog.

Maxfield & Oberton now had 10 employees, 150 sales representatives and a distribution network of 5,000 stores. Sales had reached $10 million a year. "Then," says Mr. Zucker, "we crashed."

On July 10, 2012, the Consumer Product Safety Commission instructed Maxfield & Oberton to file a "corrective-action plan" within two weeks or face an administrative suit related to Buckyballs' alleged safety defects. Around the same time—and before Maxfield & Oberton had a chance to tell its side of the story—the commission sent letters to some of Maxfield & Oberton's retail partners, including Brookstone, warning of the "severity of the risk of injury and death possibly posed by" Buckyballs and requesting them to "voluntarily stop selling" the product.

It was an underhanded move, as Maxfield & Oberton and its lawyers saw it. "Very, very quickly those 5,000 retailers became zero," says Mr. Zucker. The preliminary letters, and others sent after the complaint, made it clear that selling Buckyballs was still considered lawful pending adjudication. "But if you're a store like Brookstone or Urban Outfitters . . . you're bullied into it. You don't want problems."

As for the corrective-action plan, it was submitted at 4 p.m. on the July 24 deadline. Yet the very next morning the commission filed an administrative lawsuit against Maxfield & Oberton, suggesting the company's plan was never seriously considered.

The commission alleged that Buckyballs pose substantial hazards, which no remedy short of a full recall could address. Buckyballs, the commission said, "pose a risk of magnet ingestion by children below the age of 14, who may . . . place single or numerous magnets in their mouth."

Although no deaths have been associated with Buckyballs, the commission alleged that "numerous incidents involving ingestion by children under the age of 14 have occurred," including a 3-year-old who swallowed Buckyballs attached to her home refrigerator and a 4-year-old who ingested Buckyballs used to decorate his mother's wedding cake. These were troubling cases. But considering the thousands of other potentially dangerous products purchased everyday, it's hard to blame them on an inherent defect in Buckyballs.

"When used as intended there's never been an incident involving someone over the age of 14," Mr. Zucker says. "Like any other product in your house, if it's used in an unintended way by an unintended consumer, it of course has the ability to create an injury. Take household cleaners, knives, power tools, detergent pods. Or take balloons, which are actually intended for children and create deaths every few years. So we didn't see how the product, when used as intended—following the warnings, following the safety program—could be defective."

Buckyballs' initial conception and subsequent marketing, Mr. Zucker says, shows they were never intended for children. "We were in the lexicon of popular culture," he says. "And if you look back at this press, it was very clearly targeted at the adult community. It was in People magazine, in Real Simple magazine—it was never in Parenting magazine saying they're great for children."

Mr. Zucker and his colleagues were particularly appalled by the commission's claims, given that the warnings and safety programs they used were developed in collaboration with commission staff.

Initially the product was labeled "13+," since the relevant statute at the time defined "children's products" as intended for children 12 and under. But when a voluntary industry practice defining "toys" as intended for children 14 and under became the legal standard, Maxfield & Oberton conducted a voluntary recall: In spring 2010, any consumer who had purchased Buckyballs labeled "13+" was offered a refund. Of over 175,000 units sold, fewer than 50 were returned by consumers.

Stores also received packaging with aggressive new warnings. "Keep away from all children!" the label said. "Do not put in nose or mouth. Swallowed magnets can stick to intestines causing serious injury or death. Seek immediate medical attention if magnets are swallowed or inhaled."

"Maxfield & Oberton had a comprehensive safety program that included not just warnings but a way to restrict sales to stores that were exclusively or primarily selling children's products," Mr. Zucker says. "Toys 'R' Us didn't qualify. They wanted Buckyballs for their brick-and-mortar stores, but we wouldn't even take a call from them."

To enter into a sales agreement, retailers were required to complete a safety questionnaire and commit to a Buckyballs Responsible Seller Agreement. "When Maxfield & Oberton did that initial recall, 600 stores didn't pass the test, and the company paid to bring the product back."

Nonetheless, the commission pressed ahead with its war on Buckyballs. Most infuriating was the commission's argument that a total recall was justified because Buckyballs have "low utility to consumers" and "are not necessary to consumers."

"Two and a half million adults spent $30 on a product," Mr. Zucker says. "This wasn't a $5 impulse buy. This was a product that American adults thought had value and wanted it. It's not the government's place to say what has value and what doesn't in a free society."

Maxfield & Oberton resolved to take to the public square. On July 27, just two days after the commission filed suit, the company launched a publicity campaign to rally customers and spotlight the commission's nanny-state excesses. The campaign's tagline? "Save Our Balls."

Online ads pointed out how, under the commission's reasoning, everything from coconuts ("tasty fruit or deadly sky ballistic?") to stairways ("are they really worth the risk?") to hot dogs ("delicious but deadly") could be banned. Commission staff were challenged to debate Mr. Zucker, and consumers were invited to call Commissioner Inez Tenenbaum's "psychic hotline" to find out how it was that "the vote to sue our company was presented to the Commissioners on July 23rd, a day before our Corrective Action Plan was to be submitted."

"It was a very successful campaign," says Mr. Zucker, "just not successful enough to keep us in business." On Dec. 27, 2012, the company filed a certificate of cancellation with the State of Delaware, where Maxfield & Oberton was incorporated, and the company was dissolved.

"The inventory was sold and the business ended," says Mr. Zucker. He thought it was an "honest and graceful exit" to a broken entrepreneurial dream.

But in February the Buckyballs saga took a chilling turn: The commission filed a motion requesting that Mr. Zucker be held personally liable for the costs of the recall, which it estimated at $57 million, if the product was ultimately determined to be defective.

This was an astounding departure from the principle of limited liability at the heart of U.S. corporate law. Normally corporate officers aren't liable for the obligations of a company, and courts are loath to pierce the shield of limited liability unless it can be shown that the corporate entity was a mere facade—that corporate formalities weren't adhered to, the officers commingled personal and corporate funds, and so on.

No such allegations were made against Mr. Zucker. Instead, the commission seeks to extend the holding of United States v. Park, a 1975 Supreme Court case in which the CEO of a food retailer was held criminally liable under the Food and Drug Act for rodent infestation at company warehouses. The CEO, the court ruled, was the "responsible corporate officer" by virtue of being in a position of authority when the health violations occurred.

But in a subsequent case, Meyer v. Holley (2003), the justices clarified that ordinary rules of liability apply unless there is clear congressional intent in the pertinent statute to hold individual officers liable. The statute in Park did include an individual-liability provision. But the relevant law in the Buckyballs case, Section 15 of the Consumer Product Safety Act, regulates the conduct of manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers as corporate persons, suggesting Congress didn't intend to hold officers liable for recalls when there is a proper corporate entity in place. There is also no question of a criminal violation in Mr. Zucker's case.

Says Mr. Zucker: "The commission's saying that because as CEO I did my duty—didn't violate any law, was completely lawful—I am now the manufacturer individually responsible." Shockingly, the administrative-law judge hearing the case bought the commission's argument, meaning Mr. Zucker will have to defend himself in the Maxfield & Oberton recall case to its conclusion at the administrative level before he can challenge the individual-liability holding on appeal.

Given the fact that Buckyballs have now long been off the market, the attempt to go after Mr. Zucker personally raises the question of retaliation for his public campaign against the commission. Mr. Zucker won't speculate about the commission's motives. "It's very selective and very aggressive," he says. "If you want to ask if this is some sort of reprisal, well, they don't need Craig Zucker anymore."

Mr. Zucker says his treatment at the hands of the commission should alarm fellow entrepreneurs: "This is the beginning. It starts with this case. If you play out what happens to me, then the next thing you'll have is personal-injury lawyers saying 'you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company.' "

And if the commission's reasoning on Buckyballs were to stand, "you won't have a free market anymore—you end up with a place where adults aren't choosing which products they can own."

Mr. Ahmari is an assistant books editor at the Journal.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
Jesus **** Christ on a God Damnned Pogo Stick.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:02 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Now we find out what, "Yes we can!" really meant.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:03 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Your administration at work.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
I'm still wondering what made him think it was a good idea to start a major company-funded campaign ridiculing a major government organization. There's not a country in the world where that will end well for you. I could have predicted well ahead of time that they'd find an obscure law or regulation to **** him with.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:16 am 
Offline
Bru's Sweetie

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:04 am
Posts: 2675
Location: San Jose, CA
They shouldn't have stuck their nose into Buckyballs's business in the first place. Buckeyballs were marketed towards ADULTS! Stupidity, government interference, and irresponsibilty by "adults" are why Buckyballs are out of business now, not his response to the government agency that overstepped its bounds!

_________________
"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:01 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Xequecal wrote:
I'm still wondering what made him think it was a good idea to start a major company-funded campaign ridiculing a major government organization. There's not a country in the world where that will end well for you. I could have predicted well ahead of time that they'd find an obscure law or regulation to **** him with.


People spend lots of money ridiculing the government all the time, and no, they won't usually "find a way to **** with you". This agency is totally out of control; overzealous in protecting consumers, and evidently manned by people with colossal yet fragile egos.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
Corolinth wrote:
Now we find out what, "Yes we can!" really meant.


Considering that the agency reports to both Congress and the President, and that appointments are nominated by the President and approved by Congress, this has more to do with an agency running amok vs. some evil Obama agenda.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:54 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Aizle wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
Now we find out what, "Yes we can!" really meant.


Considering that the agency reports to both Congress and the President, and that appointments are nominated by the President and approved by Congress, this has more to do with an agency running amok vs. some evil Obama agenda.

Oh well following that logic, I guess the Senate is ultimately responsible for the actions of the Cabinet.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:49 am 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
It might not be an "Evil Obama Agenda" However there is an attitude in Washington, on both sides of the Aisle which is "We are the Government and we can do whatever we want" (Ref. IRS Scandal, Fast and Furious, Labor Board vs. Boeing, "What difference does it make," spying on reporters, not enforcing laws, changing PPACA deadlines without congressional approval). Obama, as the figurehead of the government, certainly espouses that as much as any other President/Politician.

Also Everything was (and still in many cases is) Bush's Fault when he was in office.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
Hopwin wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
Now we find out what, "Yes we can!" really meant.


Considering that the agency reports to both Congress and the President, and that appointments are nominated by the President and approved by Congress, this has more to do with an agency running amok vs. some evil Obama agenda.

Oh well following that logic, I guess the Senate is ultimately responsible for the actions of the Cabinet.


The key difference is that the cabinet doesn't report to the congress, but this agency does.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:20 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Aizle wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
Now we find out what, "Yes we can!" really meant.


Considering that the agency reports to both Congress and the President, and that appointments are nominated by the President and approved by Congress, this has more to do with an agency running amok vs. some evil Obama agenda.

Oh well following that logic, I guess the Senate is ultimately responsible for the actions of the Cabinet.


The key difference is that the cabinet doesn't report to the congress, but this agency does.


Wrong on both points. Spin again!

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:36 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
If Obama's Evil Agenda were somehow advanced by getting tiny toy magnets off the market and persecuting their maker, we could be thankful that the agenda was concerned with the utterly trivial. The part of the administration in this is in failing to supervise the agency in question. While each individual matter before the commission hardly deserves Presidential attention, the public fiasco this one has become certainly ought to demand a reigning-in from above.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:38 am 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Aizle wrote:
this has more to do with an agency running amok vs. some evil Obama agenda.

I don't think this is part of any particular "agenda", but that doesn't change the fact that Obama is the chief executive. If he sent a memo to agency head reading "stop this nonsense or have your letter of resignation on my desk tomorrow morning", I'm willing to bet it would come to a screeching halt.

Bottom line: Obama obviously doesn't give a **** what this agency is doing.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:39 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
It doesn't even need to be Obama to do that. There's got to be one or another cabinet secretary that could pretty much say the same thing on his behalf.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:44 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Diamondeye wrote:
It doesn't even need to be Obama to do that. There's got to be one or another cabinet secretary that could pretty much say the same thing on his behalf.


Forsooth, this sounds to have a correctness about its airs.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:36 am
Posts: 3083
I definitely agree that the original Commission finding was ridiculous and their attempt to go after Zucker personally strikes me as an obvious example of retaliation. That said, a few things in that article rubbed me the wrong way.

Quote:
On July 10, 2012, the Consumer Product Safety Commission instructed Maxfield & Oberton to file a "corrective-action plan" within two weeks or face an administrative suit related to Buckyballs' alleged safety defects....As for the corrective-action plan, it was submitted at 4 p.m. on the July 24 deadline. Yet the very next morning the commission filed an administrative lawsuit against Maxfield & Oberton, suggesting the company's plan was never seriously considered.

Sooo, you filed your response at 4 p.m. on the last possible day, and you're pissed that the Commission didn't then delay its own filing in order to spend more time considering your proposal? Please. Zucker and his attorney were obviously flipping the bird to the Commission by waiting until the last minute to file, and they got exactly that much respect and consideration in return.

Quote:
The outcome of the battle has ramifications far beyond a magnetic toy designed for bored office workers. It implicates bedrock American notions of consumer choice, personal responsibility and limited liability.

...the company launched a publicity campaign to rally customers and spotlight the commission's nanny-state excesses.

...This was an astounding departure from the principle of limited liability at the heart of U.S. corporate law...Says Mr. Zucker: "The commission's saying that because as CEO I did my duty—didn't violate any law, was completely lawful—I am now the manufacturer individually responsible....This is the beginning. It starts with this case. If you play out what happens to me, then the next thing you'll have is personal-injury lawyers saying 'you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company.' "

So, Zucker and the article writer strongly object to "nanny-state excesses" and believe in people taking personal responsibility for their choices, yet they firmly support corporate shield laws designed to protect officers from personal liability for the decisions they make? Limited liability for corporate officers is a government-imposed statutory scheme that literally shields people (like Zucker) from being personally responsible for their actions! I'm a bit torn on the pros and cons of corporate limited liability, but come on. The blind spot these guys have is just infuriating.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:15 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
RangerDave wrote:
Quote:
On July 10, 2012, the Consumer Product Safety Commission instructed Maxfield & Oberton to file a "corrective-action plan" within two weeks or face an administrative suit related to Buckyballs' alleged safety defects....As for the corrective-action plan, it was submitted at 4 p.m. on the July 24 deadline. Yet the very next morning the commission filed an administrative lawsuit against Maxfield & Oberton, suggesting the company's plan was never seriously considered.

Sooo, you filed your response at 4 p.m. on the last possible day, and you're pissed that the Commission didn't then delay its own filing in order to spend more time considering your proposal? Please. Zucker and his attorney were obviously flipping the bird to the Commission by waiting until the last minute to file, and they got exactly that much respect and consideration in return.


Horseshit.

Deadlines are deadlines. It was submitted on time, then it was "deeply considered" within 12 hours?

Quote:
So, Zucker and the article writer strongly object to "nanny-state excesses" and believe in people taking personal responsibility for their choices, yet they firmly support corporate shield laws designed to protect officers from personal liability for the decisions they make? Limited liability for corporate officers is a government-imposed statutory scheme that literally shields people (like Zucker) from being personally responsible for their actions! I'm a bit torn on the pros and cons of corporate limited liability, but come on. The blind spot these guys have is just infuriating.


That's not a blind spot, that's critical to the function of modern corporations AND government.

Whereas selective targeting of individuals in violation of that principle would most certainly be overreach.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Last edited by DFK! on Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:33 am 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
RD you keep drifting further and further to the deep end. Whatever insidious process law school started in your mind you owe it to yourself to discover, end, and correct.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:37 am 
Offline
Noli me calcare
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am
Posts: 4747
RangerDave wrote:
I definitely agree that the original Commission finding was ridiculous and their attempt to go after Zucker personally strikes me as an obvious example of retaliation. That said, a few things in that article rubbed me the wrong way.

Quote:
On July 10, 2012, the Consumer Product Safety Commission instructed Maxfield & Oberton to file a "corrective-action plan" within two weeks or face an administrative suit related to Buckyballs' alleged safety defects....As for the corrective-action plan, it was submitted at 4 p.m. on the July 24 deadline. Yet the very next morning the commission filed an administrative lawsuit against Maxfield & Oberton, suggesting the company's plan was never seriously considered.

Sooo, you filed your response at 4 p.m. on the last possible day, and you're pissed that the Commission didn't then delay its own filing in order to spend more time considering your proposal? Please. Zucker and his attorney were obviously flipping the bird to the Commission by waiting until the last minute to file, and they got exactly that much respect and consideration in return.



Really? So your firm makes it a point to file early (besides, possibly, discovery and the like)? I think not. When your company is on the line, you make sure the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, you triple check the paperwork you're going to file with the Federal Government.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:39 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Vindicarre wrote:
When your company is on the line, you make sure the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, you triple check the paperwork you're going to file with the Federal Government.



Then you have an AERS company and your lawyer and your accountant look at it too, if it's financial.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Xequecal wrote:
I'm still wondering what made him think it was a good idea to start a major company-funded campaign ridiculing a major government organization.

He made the mistake of believing he lived in a land that honored the right to petition government for a redress of grievances. When he was denied that right, he believed that he lived in a country that held freedom of speech paramount to all others.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:04 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
RangerDave wrote:
Sooo, you filed your response at 4 p.m. on the last possible day, and you're pissed that the Commission didn't then delay its own filing in order to spend more time considering your proposal? Please. Zucker and his attorney were obviously flipping the bird to the Commission by waiting until the last minute to file, and they got exactly that much respect and consideration in return.


Bullshit. When something is due at a certain time, that's the time it's due at. If you set the due time so close to your own deadline that you don't have time to do your own work, it's your own fault.

Quote:
So, Zucker and the article writer strongly object to "nanny-state excesses" and believe in people taking personal responsibility for their choices, yet they firmly support corporate shield laws designed to protect officers from personal liability for the decisions they make? Limited liability for corporate officers is a government-imposed statutory scheme that literally shields people (like Zucker) from being personally responsible for their actions! I'm a bit torn on the pros and cons of corporate limited liability, but come on. The blind spot these guys have is just infuriating.


Except that it isn't. Corporate officers have a fiduciary duty to their firm. They can't execute that if they are also protecting their personal interests from liability. If they engage in criminal behavior, or mix their personal affairs and the corporations, that protection can be taken away. It doesn't "shield" anyone at all. It is absolutely necessary if we want to have firms larger than mom-and-pop stores, and live in an era more advanced than the 1830s.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:36 am
Posts: 3083
DFK! wrote:
Horseshit. Deadlines are deadlines.

Vindicarre wrote:
Really? So your firm makes it a point to file early (besides, possibly, discovery and the like)? I think not. When your company is on the line, you make sure the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, you triple check the paperwork you're going to file with the Federal Government.

Diamondeye wrote:
Bullshit. When something is due at a certain time, that's the time it's due at. If you set the due time so close to your own deadline that you don't have time to do your own work, it's your own fault.

As someone who inevitably bumps up against deadlines myself, I sympathize with these sentiments, but unfortunately, that's just not how the world works in many cases. For routine informational filings, sure, as long as you get it in by the deadline you're fine. However, when you're submitting something to someone who has to then act on the basis of your submittal, waiting until the last minute often pisses them off and/or bites you in the ***. Repeatedly file things with a judge at the last minute, and pretty soon you'll be getting rebuked for dragging things out by a very annoyed judge. Submit a bid in response to an RFP on the last day of the bidding period, and you run the risk of not having your full proposal seriously considered unless your top-line number is clearly better than those submitted earlier. Wait until the last day of the cure period under your loan agreement to cure a default, and the lenders will be hounding you non-stop. And so on. Point is, I think Zucker and his attorney made a tactical error when they chose to file at the last minute, and it seems like they did it because they were pissed off about the whole thing. That just strikes me as a dumb move.

DFK! wrote:
That's not a blind spot, that's critical to the function of modern corporations AND government.

Diamondeye wrote:
Corporate officers have a fiduciary duty to their firm. They can't execute that if they are also protecting their personal interests from liability. If they engage in criminal behavior, or mix their personal affairs and the corporations, that protection can be taken away. It doesn't "shield" anyone at all. It is absolutely necessary if we want to have firms larger than mom-and-pop stores, and live in an era more advanced than the 1830s.

The fact that limited liability for corporate officers is arguably necessary in the modern economy doesn't negate the reality that it is, by definition, a statutory scheme that shields those officers from liability for their actions in most circumstances. Hell, the fact that I couldn't think of a way to write that sentence that didn't sound like a tautology kind of demonstrates the point! Statutes that limit the liability of corporate officers tend to, you know, limit their liability...statutorily. You don't think expressing strong support for a government rule that protects people from bearing the full legal consequences of their actions while at the same time strongly condemning "nanny-state excesses" that undermine "personal responsibility" - without even acknowledging the apparent inconsistency, let alone trying to justify it - is just a tad oblivious?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: More buckyballs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
Look, I completely agree that the CPSC is currently unfairly targeting Zucker in order to make an example of him. However, really, what did he think was going to happen when he responded the way he did? The initial action the CPSC took (demanding a corrective action plan) was completely on the level. Serious injuries did occur, and it's the CPSCs function to look into and prevent this type of stuff. Is it unfair that this action spooked his distributors into running? Yeah, but that's a consequence that occurs whenever the government investigates anyone for pretty much anything. The CPSC explicitly told the distributors that selling the product was still legal. There's nothing else they could have done to alleviate this other than never investigating anyone ever.

Zucker responded to the action by basically starting a public campaign trolling the **** out of them and taking a stance that's antithetical to the CPSCs entire existence:

Quote:
"Like any other product in your house, if it's used in an unintended way by an unintended consumer, it of course has the ability to create an injury. Take household cleaners, knives, power tools, detergent pods. Or take balloons, which are actually intended for children and create deaths every few years. So we didn't see how the product, when used as intended—following the warnings, following the safety program—could be defective."


If this is the standard we are going to use, the CPSC has no reason to exist, nothing would ever be recalled, and hundreds of kids would still be suffocating in refrigerators because hey, it's not a problem if you use the product as it's intended.

Does Zucker have the right to do this? Sure he does. However, it looks like the CPSC also has the right to sue the **** out of him until he can proudly scribble "I was right" on the cardboard box they're going to leave him living out of. He handled this in a stupid manner and now he's paying the price for it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 260 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group