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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:08 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
BTW - there are private sector rocket science jobs. They can compete with others for the supply of those jobs - just like everyone else in the private sector does for their jobs. You seem to think that they have some magical right to have a job - they don't, I don't, no one does.

And you seem to think that every job that people want done can be monetized and issues of diffuse benefits and collective action problems can be magically wished away.



Wanting is not enough reason to create a job. Wanting enough to pay someone is.

If we could wish our way to a perfect world we would be there. I can't believe you're actually presenting this as a comment in a public forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:24 am 
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Do you think the military should be entirely privatized? If not, then you've already conceded the core point of this argument.


Last edited by RangerDave on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:24 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Wanting is not enough reason to create a job. Wanting enough to pay someone is.

If we could wish our way to a perfect world we would be there. I can't believe you're actually presenting this as a comment in a public forum.

What you want is not what I want, nor is it by default what is best for society. Your opinion is not more correct or better than anyone elses (nor is anyones to be clear).

PS: ******* lol

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:27 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Wanting is not enough reason to create a job. Wanting enough to pay someone is.

But people do want it enough to pay for it. That's why they vote to fund it via their tax dollars.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:28 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Do you think the military should be entirely privatized? If not, then you've already conceded the core point of this argument.


It's very easy for people to say "yes" to this sort of thing on the internet just to win an argument, knowing all along that it will never actually happen and they won't ever really face (and thus can pretend don't exist) the consequences of their ideas.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:50 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Wanting is not enough reason to create a job. Wanting enough to pay someone is.

But people do want it enough to pay for it. That's why they vote to fund it via their tax dollars.

Do we?

Sheldon Richman wrote:
Treasury Secretary Jack Lew says if Congress doesn’t raise the debt ceiling—or, as I call it, the debt sky, because apparently the sky is the limit—the government won’t be able to pay all its bills starting October 17. The Congressional Budget Office says that dire condition won’t set in until sometime between October 22 and 31.

As he has each time this issue has come up, President Obama emphasizes that increasing the debt would only permit the government to pay expenses already incurred and would not finance new spending. To which I again reply, rhetorically: Why is Congress allowed to spend money that it knows it won’t possess unless the debt limit is raised? Not only does that violate good sense, it also rigs the debate over the debt limit by threatening default as the price of voting no.

Such a query about the debt sky assumes that Congress operates in a context of legitimacy. So what we really need to do is step back and question that context itself. To do that, there is no better person to turn to than Lysander Spooner (1808–1887), lawyer, abolitionist, entrepreneur, and libertarian subversive. It so happens that in section XVII of his 1870 essay “The Constitution of No Authority” (number 6 in his No Treason series), Spooner took up the question of government debt with his signature fresh look. As you might imagine, he left nothing standing.

“On general principles of law and reason,” Spooner wrote, “debts contracted in the name of ‘the United States,’ or of ‘the people of the United States,’ are of no validity.”

How could that be?

Quote:
It is utterly absurd to pretend that debts to the amount of twenty-five hundred millions of dollars are binding upon thirty-five or forty millions of people, when there is not a particle of legitimate evidence — such as would be required to prove a private debt — that can be produced against any one of them, that either he, or his properly authorized attorney, ever contracted to pay one cent.

Certainly, neither the whole people of the United States, nor any number of them, ever separately or individually contracted to pay a cent of these debts.


He has a point. I can’t recall ever registering such consent—or being asked to, for that matter. Can you? Aren’t we taught that the “consent of the governed” is a sacred American principle?

Earlier in the essay, Spooner handily disposes of the claim that voting or paying taxes implies consent. Since we are subjected to the government’s impositions whether or not we vote—opting out is forbidden—any given individual may have cast a vote purely in self-defense, for the perceived lesser of two evils. And paying taxes certainly cannot signify consent, because the penalty for nonpayment is theft of one’s property, imprisonment, or (should one resist) death. In fact, there is no way not to consent, which makes the whole question rather suspicious. How can one actually consent if there is no possible way to withhold consent? (Charles W. Johnson has something to say about that.)

So by what authority do the people who claim to constitute the U.S. government borrow money in our names and compel us to repay the debt? By no authority at all, as far as I can see, unless “might makes right” counts as authority.

Spooner continues,

Quote:
How, then, is it possible, on any general principle of law or reason, that debts that are binding upon nobody individually, can be binding upon forty millions of people collectively, when, on general and legitimate principles of law and reason, these forty millions of people neither have, nor ever had, any corporate property? never made any corporate or individual contract? and neither have, nor ever had, any corporate existence?


It seems that this is not possible. “Who, then, created these debts, in the name of ‘the United States’?” he asks.

Quote:
Why, at most, only a few persons, calling themselves “members of Congress,” etc., who pretended to represent “the people of the United States,” but who really represented only a secret band of robbers and murderers, who wanted money to carry on the robberies and murders in which they were then engaged; and who intended to extort from the future people of the United States, by robbery and threats of murder (and real murder, if that should prove necessary), the means to pay these debts.


Here, when Spooner says the members of Congress only “pretended to represent” Americans at large, he is referring to his earlier point that because the ballot is secret, we really don’t know whom these alleged representatives actually represent, that is, whose agents they really are.

Quote:
The money, therefore, was all borrowed and lent in the dark; that is, by men who did not see each other’s faces, or know each other’s names; who could not then, and cannot now, identify each other as principals in the transactions; and who consequently can prove no contract with each other.


But this is just the beginning of the problems with the so-called public debt.

Quote:
Furthermore, the money was all lent and borrowed for criminal purposes; that is, for purposes of robbery and murder; and for this reason the contracts were all intrinsically void; and would have been so, even though the real parties, borrowers and lenders, had come face to face, and made their contracts openly, in their own proper names.


And how is this borrowed money to be repaid?

Quote:
Having no corporate property with which to pay what purports to be their corporate debts, this secret band of robbers and murderers are really bankrupt. They have nothing to pay with. In fact, they do not propose to pay their debts otherwise than from the proceeds of their future robberies and murders. These are confessedly their sole reliance; and were known to be such by the lenders of the money, at the time the money was lent. And it was, therefore, virtually a part of the contract, that the money should be repaid only from the proceeds of these future robberies and murders. For this reason, if for no other, the contracts were void from the beginning.


In fact, Spooner continues,

Quote:
these apparently two classes, borrowers and lenders, were really one and the same class. They borrowed and lent money from and to themselves. They themselves were not only part and parcel, but the very life and soul, of this secret band of robbers and murderers, who borrowed and spent the money. Individually they furnished money for a common enterprise; taking, in return, what purported to be corporate promises for individual loans. The only excuse they had for taking these so-called corporate promises of, for individual loans by, the same parties, was that they might have some apparent excuse for the future robberies of the band (that is, to pay the debts of the corporation), and that they might also know what shares they were to be respectively entitled to out of the proceeds of their future robberies.


When Spooner rips away the veil, we are left with the fact that a group of unknown profit-seeking principals authorize their agents to use the former’s money in order to, among other things, extort a larger sum of money from a larger group of people who never consented to an arrangement in the first place. And it is all done, dishonestly, in the name of that larger group with the fraudulent words “government of the people, by the people, for the people.” It’s the greatest swindle ever perpetrated.

Finally, Spooner writes,

Quote:
if these debts had been created for the most innocent and honest purposes, and in the most open and honest manner, by the real parties to the contracts, these parties could thereby have bound nobody but themselves, and no property but their own. They could have bound nobody that should have come after them, and no property subsequently created by, or belonging to, other persons.


The debt, then, was and is illegitimately incurred. The lenders, who voluntarily entered into this relationship with government officials, should have known that. Perhaps the lenders should sue those officials and collect damages from the officials’ personal property, but it seems more accurate to think of them as Spooner did: as accomplices in crime. (See section XVIII of his essay.)

At any rate, they can have no proper claim against the rest of us.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:59 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Do you think the military should be entirely privatized? If not, then you've already conceded the core point of this argument.



I absolutely believe we should not have a standing army.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am 
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/facepalm @ Spooner

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am 
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My mom is affected by this. She works for the IRS and is on leave without pay. No guarantee she will be backpaid either.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Wanting is not enough reason to create a job. Wanting enough to pay someone is.

But people do want it enough to pay for it. That's why they vote to fund it via their tax dollars.



If they were the only ones paying for it you would be correct but that isn't how taxes work and you know it. Not even close to the same thing. They are willing to pay (not enough) for it and thus they have to demand the income of others in order to get their way. That is immoral.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
/facepalm @ Spooner



Thats great - try to disprove any of Spooner's positions.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:03 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Do you think the military should be entirely privatized? If not, then you've already conceded the core point of this argument.

I absolutely believe we should not have a standing army.

That wasn't my question.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:06 am 
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You've pretty conclusively cast your lot in with the anarchist survivalist nutjobs Elmarnieh, I'm not sure why you're participating in the debate at all--you don't want to change gov't-- you want to abolish it.

You're like the guy who rails against, say, MMA as barbaric and modern-day gladiator games, and then wants to interject how such-and-such fighter is better than another.

We get it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:06 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Do you think the military should be entirely privatized? If not, then you've already conceded the core point of this argument.

I absolutely believe we should not have a standing army.

That wasn't my question.


The military doesn't have to be privatized for the government not to do it so false dilemma first of all. I would happily accept the limited role for government military that is authorized in the Constitution because it is such a far cry from what it is here. Ideally there would be no such thing as a standing army except when so called for the defense of the nation.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:06 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
/facepalm @ Spooner



Thats great - try to disprove any of Spooner's positions.

His argument falls apart at step 1: consent of the governed.

Your vote means you consent to the actions of those you elect. If you don't vote then your silence and continued choice of residence is your consent. If you disagree with the outcome of the election and continue your residence then you are consenting too.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:08 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
You've pretty conclusively cast your lot in with the anarchist survivalist nutjobs Elmarnieh, I'm not sure why you're participating in the debate at all--you don't want to change gov't-- you want to abolish it.

You're like the guy who rails against, say, MMA as barbaric and modern-day gladiator games, and then wants to interject how such-and-such fighter is better than another.

We get it.



If you got it you wouldn't be advocating that others be forced to pay for that which you want done.

Either that or you accept that you support evil and that you believe that the ends justify the means. If you're comfortable with that then fine we are enemies to the core of our beings.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:08 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
If they were the only ones paying for it you would be correct but that isn't how taxes work and you know it. Not even close to the same thing. They are willing to pay (not enough) for it and thus they have to demand the income of others in order to get their way. That is immoral.

Yeah, I know you reject the idea of democracy (representative or direct).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:10 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
/facepalm @ Spooner



Thats great - try to disprove any of Spooner's positions.

His argument falls apart at step 1: consent of the governed.

Your vote means you consent to the actions of those you elect. If you don't vote then your silence and continued choice of residence is your consent. If you disagree with the outcome of the election and continue your residence then you are consenting too.



So you're actually trying to say that no matter what you do you give consent including taking no action and you expect that to be accepted as either reasonable or logical?

Hopwin I own you body and soul. I will allow you the option to vote if I take your life or all of your property. Please apply your own standards to this situation.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:11 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
If they were the only ones paying for it you would be correct but that isn't how taxes work and you know it. Not even close to the same thing. They are willing to pay (not enough) for it and thus they have to demand the income of others in order to get their way. That is immoral.

Yeah, I know you reject the idea of democracy (representative or direct).



Then why do you continually attempt to base your arguments with me on a premise that I reject?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:12 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
/facepalm @ Spooner



Thats great - try to disprove any of Spooner's positions.

His argument falls apart at step 1: consent of the governed.

Your vote means you consent to the actions of those you elect. If you don't vote then your silence and continued choice of residence is your consent. If you disagree with the outcome of the election and continue your residence then you are consenting too.

If you'd actually read this, you'd realize you've failed to address his key point -- in order to consent, I must be able to NOT consent. To withhold my consent.

Saying that continuing my residence is consent is absurd. So every time the government makes a decision I do not and cannot support, I should leave and find a new one?

I'll be living on the moon in a week. That's simply not a feasible standard for consent.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:14 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
The military doesn't have to be privatized for the government not to do it so false dilemma first of all. I would happily accept the limited role for government military that is authorized in the Constitution because it is such a far cry from what it is here. Ideally there would be no such thing as a standing army except when so called for the defense of the nation.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you or do you not think the government should be able to incur expenses for military purposes (even if only from time-to-time, as needed for defense from an imminent attack)? If so, how are those expenses to be paid for? Can a member of the public who doesn't support a particular military expense simply opt-out of paying the taxes?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:15 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
The military doesn't have to be privatized for the government not to do it so false dilemma first of all. I would happily accept the limited role for government military that is authorized in the Constitution because it is such a far cry from what it is here. Ideally there would be no such thing as a standing army except when so called for the defense of the nation.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you or do you not think the government should be able to incur expenses for military purposes (even if only from time-to-time, as needed for defense from an imminent attack)? If so, how are those expenses to be paid for? Can a member of the public who doesn't support a particular military expense simply opt-out of paying the taxes?




Sure. Warbonds.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:24 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
The military doesn't have to be privatized for the government not to do it so false dilemma first of all. I would happily accept the limited role for government military that is authorized in the Constitution because it is such a far cry from what it is here. Ideally there would be no such thing as a standing army except when so called for the defense of the nation.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you or do you not think the government should be able to incur expenses for military purposes (even if only from time-to-time, as needed for defense from an imminent attack)? If so, how are those expenses to be paid for? Can a member of the public who doesn't support a particular military expense simply opt-out of paying the taxes?


Sure. Warbonds.

Ah, ok. So your view is that military operations can be conducted by the government without 100% approval of the public (since there's never 100% agreement on anything), but only funded by voluntarily-purchased war bonds, not general tax revenue?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:28 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
The military doesn't have to be privatized for the government not to do it so false dilemma first of all. I would happily accept the limited role for government military that is authorized in the Constitution because it is such a far cry from what it is here. Ideally there would be no such thing as a standing army except when so called for the defense of the nation.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you or do you not think the government should be able to incur expenses for military purposes (even if only from time-to-time, as needed for defense from an imminent attack)? If so, how are those expenses to be paid for? Can a member of the public who doesn't support a particular military expense simply opt-out of paying the taxes?


Sure. Warbonds.

Ah, ok. So your view is that military operations can be conducted by the government without 100% approval of the public (since there's never 100% agreement on anything), but only funded by voluntarily-purchased war bonds, not general tax revenue?


Yup. If people support a war enough they will pay for it. If they don't it should'nt be waged.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:36 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
If you'd actually read this, you'd realize you've failed to address his key point -- in order to consent, I must be able to NOT consent. To withhold my consent. Saying that continuing my residence is consent is absurd. So every time the government makes a decision I do not and cannot support, I should leave and find a new one? I'll be living on the moon in a week. That's simply not a feasible standard for consent.

Fair enough, but there's really no other alternative. Richman & Spooner's argument isn't an argument against public liability for government debts; it's an argument against democratic systems of government in their entirety. The same "lack of consent" critique applies to every government action that isn't affirmatively ratified by each and every person affected (on an ongoing basis, no less, since new people are born and/or immigrate every day). In other words, it's an argument for anarchy.


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