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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Whuh? Steam Controller.

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http://gizmodo.com/steam-is-getting-its ... 1411630652


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Man, that looks really, really awful.

Gotta test one out in person, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:14 pm 
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When I saw the patent that included the trackball, I was a bit more intrigued since I've used a Logitech trackman since 1997.

I remain cautiously optimistic. They say there are 16 buttons, and half of them can be accessed without ever lifting your thumbs. That would certainly be an improvement over current standard controllers.



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Not being able to try this, it's obviously a preliminary observation, but i think the acessibility of the A,B,X and Y buttons would be a problem.. especially for smaller hands. They seem to be too far apart, and too far away.

Of course if the controller itself is on the small side, it may still work....


Last edited by Midgen on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:24 pm 
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I'm.. kind of interested in that controller. The rings on the track pads look like a great way to provide the tactile feedback that's missing trying to use a trackpad on, say, a laptop for gaming. Married to a sensible approach to input control schemes, they could work out pretty well, actually.

The thing to remember, though? SteamOS is Linux. And open. You don't like the SteamPad? Somebody out there will write drivers for other controllers. Right?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I'm.. kind of interested in that controller. The rings on the track pads look like a great way to provide the tactile feedback that's missing trying to use a trackpad on, say, a laptop for gaming. Married to a sensible approach to input control schemes, they could work out pretty well, actually.


I agree, the contoured rings definitely look like they'll help. Their announcement is that the biggest feedback will come from the magnetic haptics, and it sounds like it's something they've been testing and working out for over a year (with the complete understanding that trackpads alone just don't offer much feedback).

It's impossible to tell just from looking at it how it will mesh with me. I had no idea I'd fall in love with Logitech's trackman until I spent a week with it. I definitely scoffed at it just from the look of it beforehand.

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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
I don't see SteamOS offering any features above or beyond what Xbox One or PS4 offer. What do you expect them to do that will wow you when MS and Sony haven't? The games will continue being made by the same people that have been making them for decades so nothing is gonna change on the gaming front. What console features do you think Steam will implement that MS and Sony haven't already offered or thought of?


This isn't a console. It's a PC. It runs PC games. It has so many advantages over consoles:

1. Much better backwards compatibility.
2. Free online play.
3. Possibility to upgrade incrementally, or customize your hardware to suit your needs.
4. It won't be locked down like the consoles. You can run whatever programs you want on it. No bullshit monthly subscription for the "privilege" of accessing your netflix subscription, or Skype, or recording videos of your games.
5. Better access to game mods, and a better modding community in general.
6. Supports more input types and third party accessories. Heck, it's even backwards compatible with PS3 and Xbox360 controllers, which isn't true of the next gen consoles.
7. Games are usually cheaper, especially with Steam sales.
8. Can install emulators and play old console games.

I could probably keep going, but I don't want to start sounding like some crazy Steam fanatic.

Yes, if you already have a nice gaming PC and it's hooked up to your living room TV, there's no point in buying a Steambox. You can already run Steam on your PC, and if you really want, you can just install SteamOS on there for free. If you have a nice gaming PC but it's not hooked up to your living room TV, you can buy a cheap Steam Machine that will stream games from your PC to your TV for a fraction of the price of a next-gen console.

Personally, my computer is already hooked up to my TV and I already play Steam games on the TV, so I won't be getting any of this. If I move and it's less convenient to run cables from my PC to the TV, I might buy a Steam Machine for the streaming capability and as a media center PC. I certainly won't be buying a locked-down console from Sony of Microsoft.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:03 pm 
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I see all those points Amanar, but I also see this:

The fact that they are making the OS more user friendly so that it can be used like a console (by the mere fact they are selling pre-made boxes) allows them to throw a bit more weight around to game developers in the console world to get their games out for their OS. PC users can't play GTA V now, for example. But if SteamOS can be marketed like a console and developers can be brought on board, then games that are developed late, poorly, or not at all for the PC may have a different kind of life on SteamOS.

If Valve can get all the third party console titles developed for their OS in conjunction with the consoles, then that is a major play. There aren't any first party exclusives I "must have" from either Sony or Microsoft. And there is nothing on my home PC keeping me loyal to Windows other than games. (There are games that I refuse to play on my PC, and would rather play on the couch. And vice versa.) If SteamOS can give me all the gaming options I want for PC and console gaming, then I (and anyone else like me) have an extremely, EXTREMELY easy decision to make.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Attachment:
steamsack.jpg
steamsack.jpg [ 17.24 KiB | Viewed 3870 times ]


All that's missing is the shaft, which you'll all get when they cancel HL3.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:21 am 
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The controller is getting good marks:

http://kotaku.com/valves-controller-has ... 1415579308


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Don't neglect to read the blog linked from that Kotaku article..

Super Meat Boy developer plays his own games on the Steam controller, walks away satisfied, with some feedback for improvement.

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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:48 pm 
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As I sit and stew on it a bit more, SteamOS does seem like something I want. My main gripe with PC gaming is the uncomfortable positions required by most mouse/kb games; sitting at a desk to play when I already do that 8 hours a day for work. The fact that it'll tie all of my gaming onto one unified platform is a bonus. This could end up being what I had hoped to get from Windows 8 / Phone / Xbox. Platform-indifferent gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:35 am 
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Info on their "Steam Tier" setup. I was wondering how they were going to dumb it down to a level the general-level consumer could understand. Still, going with a numbering system might be too complicated. They probably should've gone with colors, or mcdonalds food metaphors. "Sure, this happy meal will run that game ok, but if you really want performance you're gonna have to step up to the Big Mac!".

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Talking over Valve's announcement of its Steam Machine prototype specs with a few people online (including Ars' own Andrew Cunningham), I've come to the conclusion that Valve might need more than its own free, standardized gaming OS (and, ideally, an exclusive killer app) to make PC gaming appealing for the living room console consumer. To really put up a fight, they should do something to simplify the dizzying variety of architectures and performance points that are inherent in parcel with PC gaming.

Just look at the range of hardware configurations that Valve is including in the roll out of its Steam Machine prototypes. They range from machines with parts totaling $600 or so to Nvidia Titan-powered beasts that would cost upwards of $1500 to build. Valve is also quick to mention that plenty of other companies will be rolling their own systems to market, some of which may deviate "substantially" from the prototype. Yet all of these different configurations are falling under a single "Steam Machines" label.

PC gamers are used to the fact that the term "PC" covers everything from $200 budget machines to $3,500 beasts. Valve is explicitly targeting the living room-based, console-playing audience with its SteamOS boxes though. If this audience is used to one thing, it's having a single standard that provides consistent, measurable hardware power levels and compatibility.

There are plenty of advantages and disadvantages to both sides of the great console/PC gaming divide, but this consistency is one of the console side's enduring pluses. You can be sure that any Xbox 360 will run any game that has come out for the system between 2005 and this holiday season, regardless of slight differences in the internal hardware. With the PC side on the other hand, you have to worry about everything from what APIs your graphics card supports and how much RAM the game requires to how many cores and per-second cycles your CPU can handle. Not only that, but you have to juggle minimum, recommended, and optimum system requirements for every single game.

The advantage of this setup, of course, is flexibility. You know exactly what piece (or pieces) of hardware you'll need to replace to get your system up to snuff for the latest game. But the console gamers Valve is newly targeting, by and large, just want to know that anything made for that particular system will run. They don't want to possess deep knowledge of their system's innards and API calls.

Valve doesn't have to compromise on SteamOS' open, freely upgradeable promise to reach out to these gamers. It just has to offer up some sort of standardized system for separating marketable Steam Machines from a variety of vendors into different power tiers that developers and consumers can easily target.

Under this system, Valve would set different levels of minimum performance that a SteamOS-machine would have to meet to earn a Valve-endorsed certification at Level 1, Level 2, and so on. Game developers, in turn, could optimize and advertise their SteamOS-powered games with a specific level in mind. Maybe the game runs best on a level-4-or-better system but can still run acceptably on any level 2 system.

This setup would lose some of the granularity associated with the current "system requirements" regime common in PC gaming (a game that had the RAM requirements of level 5 but the GPU requirements of level 2, for instance, would be forced to simply "require" level 5 under this setup). But it has the advantage of being much simpler than the lists of system requirements and the wide variety of components that PC gamers have to deal with today.

If a game is tuned for Level 5 Steam Machines and you have a level 6 Steam Machine, that's really all you need to know. No need to squint at the side of a box or go hunting around the Web for details. If your machine is below the minimum level of most of the new games you're interested in, then it's time to upgrade. For an audience used to simple, plug-and-play, "it just works" compatibility across an entire hardware generation, this kind of simplicity could be key to adoption.

Valve would ideally set the standard for each of these tiers by releasing its own Steam machines at various levels (its prototype plan already shows a willingness to support many different hardware configurations). This would give outside Steam Machine makers a good reference to shoot for in developing their own hardware, much as Google's Nexus line helps set the standard for the Android market. Having discrete tiers would also help consumers comparison shopping for a Steam Machine determine how much power they're getting for their comparative dollar.

System makers could opt out of this certification of course, but if Valve starts including it on its own hardware and promoting it on Steam itself, consumers may well start looking for that Valve-endorsed certification sticker on other Steam Machines. Do-it-yourself Steam Machine builders could use a website to determine their hardware's current certification level and to measure the potential impact of upgrading one piece or another.

Microsoft has tried something similar with its Windows Experience Index scores, which were meant to give people some idea of which components in their PCs were fastest and slowest. Those numbers never really ended up catching on, but Valve is in a unique position to use its launch of a brand new gaming platform to roll out a standard that could be widely adopted across the industry.

There's a lot we don't know about Valve's SteamOS plans, and they might have something like this in the works already. Regardless, this kind of centralized standardization would go a long way towards getting console gamers used to the idea of a PC-based system—without giving up any of the flexibility and upgradeability inherent in the SteamOS design.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:44 am 
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So.. who's that quoting, and are there any links to Valve material there? That seems like 95% editorial, including the tiering talk, unless it's just really shoddily written reporting on an interview or something.

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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Source - http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/10/steamos-hardware-tiers-could-open-console-gamers-to-the-world-of-pc-gaming/

And you're right, reading it the second time, it's this guy's fever dream. Oh well, I'll be curious to see what Valve actually comes up with to address the biggest benefit of consoles - global compatibility across the board. While there has been some fragmentation over the last few years (versions without hard drives, versions with or without wireless) generally, if it runs on xbox 360, it runs on xbox 360. No issue with it needing more RAM than you have, more GPU power than you have, etc. Hopefully they'll come up with something clever to crack the console market.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:13 am 
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That is kind of my only real fear with the steam box thingers they are coming out with. "Make sure your game runs on the box or it won't be on Steam!" is the kind of **** that makes consoles worse than PCs when it comes to gaming. Fixed hardware stagnates everything and stagnation is awful for gaming. I realize Steam isn't the only place to get games, but I do really like having an all digital platform that has a great deal of awesome games all in one place. Then again, it might not come down to that at all...but I am worried it might go that way and Steam will suck as much as consoles do. Plus, that controller is **** terrible looking. Keyboard+Mouse or die.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:34 am 
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FarSky wrote:


Did they doodle that on the back of an Xbox controller?

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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:24 pm 
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It's funny, I actually like the controller aesthetically. It looks a lot cooler than the PS4 and XboxOne controllers, in my opinion. There's something about the stubby, bulbous hand-grips that I just find appealing. (... yeah, I can't think of any better adjectives, sorry)

As for functionality, I'm going to hold my judgement until I can actually test it out. I'm... open minded. I don't think it looks like it will ever be competitive with mouse+keyboard for things like FPSes, but I don't think it's really intended to be. The impression I get is that it's supposed to make it possible to play games like Civilization V on the couch with a controller, and for things like that I can see it being a lot better than dual analog sticks.

The lack of a d-pad concerns me, as a lot of what i use controllers for are old emulator games or platformers. But I guess I'll just have to wait and see what it's like.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
I don't think it looks like it will ever be competitive with mouse+keyboard for things like FPSes, but I don't think it's really intended to be.


Funny, because that is pretty much the exact intent. Bringing mouse-like accuracy to a controller.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:51 pm 
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I never make assumptions on controllers until I've held them in my hands and use them to actually play games.

Anyone coming from the arcade and Atari 2600 would have thought the original NES controller looked terrible (although ergonomically, they're right. that thing will destroy your palms). The N64 controller (which pioneered analog sticks for consoles) got a lot of remarks about how it looks uncomfortable, that they'd never use anything but the D-pad, etc. A lot of people didn't think the wii controller (or nunchuck combo) would be any good, intuitive, or comfortable.

People will always find reasons to ***** about things that they can't see the entire picture over. I was heavily involved in multiple and popular internet discussions sites about Lord of the Rings. And the number 1 complaint was how the director of Frighteners and Dead Alive was not the right choice for the movies and how he was going to make their beloved book series bomb very hard.

Then there's the fact that I've already had a similar real world example of this. I was a mouse and keyboard man through and through. My room mate bought Diablo in 1996. My PC wasn't powerful enough to play it, so he let me play it on his. But, he used a trackball that you moved with your thumb. I wasn't happy about it, but my desire to play Diablo overrode my desire not to use a trackball.

After playing the game well into the night and long after he fell asleep, I came to find out that I enjoyed the experience of that game with the trackball. So when I had a computer powerful enough to play Diablo (read: something better than a 486) I also purchased a Logitech Trackman Marble.

I could not only play games with it, but I could excel at them and even be at a competition level. My CTF clan was involved in many tournaments and it was not uncommon for me to lead our team in points. And then there was the fact that I could have a 12 hour marathon session and I never had to worry about cramping. It got to the point where my clan members would ask to play on my rig when we'd have LAN parties, because they too wanted the same experience I was having.

So, I will wait to try the controller myself. I will also wait until I begin to get proficient with the controller before passing judgment.

Amanar: Yeah I can see the D-pad being an issue if you really want a dpad. But, if not, the great thing about SteamOS being 100% open source is that any controller can be made to work with it. All someone has to do is create an API.


Edit: I also agree that this controller looks to give me far, FAR more accuracy in FPS games on a console than with current controllers. I *hate* playing FPS games with console controllers. Yes, it's doable. But it's like asking someone to drive a car while heavily sedated and one arm tied behind their back, and they have to use their left foot for the gas and brake. Sure it can be done. But it's terrible compared to the experience you're used to. Giving me finer control over my crosshair/pointer is nothing but a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Funny, because that is pretty much the exact intent. Bringing mouse-like accuracy to a controller.


The website for the Steam Controller puts it like this:

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Whole genres of games that were previously only playable with a keyboard and mouse are now accessible from the sofa. RTS games. Casual, cursor-driven games. Strategy games. 4x space exploration games. A huge variety of indie games. Simulation titles. And of course, Euro Truck Simulator 2.

In addition, games like first-person shooters that are designed around precise aiming within a large visual field now benefit from the trackpads’ high resolution and absolute position control.


To me it sounded like the main goal is to enable you to play games that were only playable with a mouse and keyboard on a controller, so you can sit on your couch and play. The high resolution being better for "precise aiming" seem like an additional benefit, not the main goal. Just my anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:26 pm 
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The only benefit of using a mouse is its high level of accuracy, so now we're just arguing semantics. FPS games are the number one driver for extremely high DPI and adjustable-weight mice.


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 Post subject: Re: SteamOS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:32 am 
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I'm pretty excited to try it out. It's been a long time since controller tech had anything but a revision (for me the 360 controller is the most ergonomic and functional so far). My biggest worry was responsiveness for twitch gaming, but after reading the Super Meat Boy designer (you wanna talk about twitch gaming...) those fears are dramatically reduced. If anything, I'm hopeful that the steam OS will be fully compatible with all types of input, 360 controller, PS4, steam controller, so we can choose based on preference and what works best for which game.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:28 pm 
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