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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:40 am 
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So further evidence at just how completely **** up our current heathcare system is:

I mentioned a page or so ago that I had the opportunity to sample the UK's NHS by passing a kidney stone. At a high level, my treatment was as follows:

- Get admitted around 1:30pm on a Saturday through the ER.
- Get X-Rayed
- Get IV with Morphine and a couple other painkillers
- Spend ~5 hours in ER before I'm moved to a ward to recover
- Spend the night, with continuing pain meds
- 2 meals and lots of water/juice
- Discharged the following day around 4pm

I'll mention again that the level of care I received was some of the best I've had. Doctors were informative, nurses were amazingly good and everyone was genuinely nice and accommodating.

Today, I just received my bill (It's only free to UK citizens).

501 Quid (~$800)

Similar treatment in the US would have been multiple thousands of dollars easily.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:47 am 
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That's fantastic for you, but I don't see that the attitude of the doctors or nurses is related to the healthcare system. I've been in the hospital 3 times with atrial fibrilation (and hopefully no more now that I'm on the right medication). The attitude has been widly variable between the 3 hospitals.

The UK is also paying for their healthcare system in universally high taxes, and I've heard some real horror stories from it as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:11 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That's fantastic for you, but I don't see that the attitude of the doctors or nurses is related to the healthcare system. I've been in the hospital 3 times with atrial fibrilation (and hopefully no more now that I'm on the right medication). The attitude has been widly variable between the 3 hospitals.

The UK is also paying for their healthcare system in universally high taxes, and I've heard some real horror stories from it as well.

Like people getting fast-tracked to the Liverpool Pathway

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:16 am 
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You paid what your out of pocket would have been at the majority of hospitals in the United States, but claim this is a great victory the United Kingdom? The only thing they did differently than would have occurred in the US: keep you overnight for observation; and that difference is almost entirely the fault of the Affordable Care Act. Any exorbitant costs incurred post-ACA would come from the bifurcation of healthcare facilities (the hospital) and healthcare providers (physician and nursing subcontractors) made mandatory by the ACA, and the very real reality that your hospital's providers are not actually in your insurance network.

Incidentally, my boss's last kidney stone cost him $380 out of pocket at the Emory Research Hospital.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:21 pm 
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The President JUST announced that people who got cancellation notices can have their coverages/plans extended for 1 year (at their insurers discretion):

http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/14/news/ec ... ?hpt=hp_t1
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Americans may be able to keep their individual insurance plans for one more year, under a fix offered by President Obama on Thursday to address a controversial provision of the Affordable Care Act.

The deal is meant to mollify millions of people enraged after their insurers canceled policies that do not meet Obamacare requirements. The uproar has ensnared the White House for weeks, shining a spotlight on Obama's previous promise that people who liked their insurance plans can keep them.

"This fix won't solve every problem for every person" but it will help many, the President said at the White House. "We are going to do everything we can to help Americans who've received these cancellation notices."

But the fix, as reported earlier by CNN's Dana Bash, puts the onus of the renewals on insurers. The administration is not requiring insurers or state insurance commissioners to extend the existing plans, but instead is allowing insurers to offer an additional year of coverage.

Also, insurers must notify policyholders of the difference in benefits between their policies and the Obamacare plans available on the insurance exchanges. And the companies must inform people that additional policies are available on the exchanges and that subsidies may be available to those who qualify


Can't decide if this hilarious since the administration just punted to the private sector or because it looks an awful lot like the year-long delay for the individual mandate that shut down the government last month.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:38 pm 
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How about itd funny because all the people who were clamoring about "its the law of the land" and everyone who moaned about Bush's overeaches are stone silent

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Can't decide if this hilarious since the administration just punted to the private sector or because it looks an awful lot like the year-long delay for the individual mandate that shut down the government last month.

Well, the mandate will still be in effect. It's just now, when these people whose policies got canceled start complaining about not getting affordable care, the Dems will try to blame lazy insurance companies for not reinstating the policies.

I'm still trying to figure out how the President has the power to make law changes like this without Congress.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Checks and balances are only a good thing when Republicans are in office.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:55 pm 
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So then the new message is, "If you like your insurance then its not OUR fault you can't keep it."?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So then the new message is, "If you like your insurance then its not OUR fault you can't keep it."?

Yes.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Barack Obama wrote:
I was not told directly that the website would not work; otherwise, why would I have been telling everyone it's as easy as shopping on Amazon.com or your favorite app store?
That statement during today's press conference was pure comedy gold. No one told the President "directly" ...

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Last edited by Khross on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Khross wrote:
You paid what your out of pocket would have been at the majority of hospitals in the United States, but claim this is a great victory the United Kingdom? The only thing they did differently than would have occurred in the US: keep you overnight for observation; and that difference is almost entirely the fault of the Affordable Care Act. Any exorbitant costs incurred post-ACA would come from the bifurcation of healthcare facilities (the hospital) and healthcare providers (physician and nursing subcontractors) made mandatory by the ACA, and the very real reality that your hospital's providers are not actually in your insurance network.

Incidentally, my boss's last kidney stone cost him $380 out of pocket at the Emory Research Hospital.


What bizarro world do you live in that the total bill from the hospital for an overnight stay, x-rays and IV were less than $3k+?

The 501 quid was the total invoice from the hospital, not what my out of pocket was after insurance.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
What bizarro world do you live in that the total bill from the hospital for an overnight stay, x-rays and IV were less than $3k+?
Not Minnesota, New York, or California?

I'm beginning to understand why so many liberals support European-style socialized medicine; they think the government distorted prices on their healthcare invoices actually mean something. Your healthcare expenses are your out-of-pocket and premiums for the year divided over number of healthcare service events. The only difference between your UK bill and your average US bill? You don't have all the Medicaid/Medicare price-fixing shenanigans going on to make those numbers look ridiculous.

Prior to the ACA, my hematologist would bill you $60 for a cash visit and $600 for an insurance/claims visit. Or, more accurately, he'd give you a flat 90% discount from the Medicaid/Medicare set customary and standard billing rate for his consult hours -- $600. If you paid cash, he got $60. If you made him file, well, the insurance company gave him some percentage of $60, despite the fact he gave you a bill stating you owed him $240. Price and invoice distortion is one of the LARGEST problems with our government intrusions into healthcare. Information warfare is another.

Who's the largest healthcare payer in the United States, Aizle?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Can't decide if this hilarious since the administration just punted to the private sector or because it looks an awful lot like the year-long delay for the individual mandate that shut down the government last month.

Well, the mandate will still be in effect. It's just now, when these people whose policies got canceled start complaining about not getting affordable care, the Dems will try to blame lazy insurance companies for not reinstating the policies.

I'm still trying to figure out how the President has the power to make law changes like this without Congress.


He doesn't have to change the law, he can just selectively enforce it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:55 pm 
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and that's okay? Cause it sure wasn't 5-13 years ago

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
and that's okay? Cause it sure wasn't 5-13 years ago

I believe the oath of office was amended to uphold the laws of these United States... That I am directly told of.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:21 pm 
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oh, ok then

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
and that's okay? Cause it sure wasn't 5-13 years ago


Sure it was. Ashcroft and Gonzales under Bush selectively enforced the obscenity laws all the time to go after "vice" that they didn't like.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
and that's okay? Cause it sure wasn't 5-13 years ago


Sure it was. Ashcroft and Gonzales under Bush selectively enforced the obscenity laws all the time to go after "vice" that they didn't like.


"Bush did it, so it's OK" ?

Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:30 pm 
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If both sides of the political spectrum do it, then it at least suggests that's it's legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Extreme_Associates

Knowing about this case is basically why I responded the way I did in the buckyballs thread, that guy was lucky to stay out of prison, unlike these two. When the government goes on a "protect the children!" crusade and you tell them to **** themselves, bad things tend to happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:10 am 
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Looks like someone forgot that insurance is regulated at the state level. The Democratic leadership of WA has already stated that the President's decree will not rule in their state.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:24 am 
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Rynar:

No one's forgotten; the Federal Exchanges are an end-run on the state licensing and regulation schemes for the insurance industry. Of course, behind the scenes, the Obama Administration has tied Federal Medicaid/Medicare funds to ACA compliance; and they have been giving Medicaid expansion funds to those states willing to play ball with the President's schemes while withholding said expansion funds from states attempting to resist the ACA.

This is all Thug-Life (tm) Politics, and at this point, I suspect Justin Bieber could run DHHS better than Sibelius.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:50 am 
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Khross wrote:
Rynar:

No one's forgotten; the Federal Exchanges are an end-run on the state licensing and regulation schemes for the insurance industry. Of course, behind the scenes, the Obama Administration has tied Federal Medicaid/Medicare funds to ACA compliance; and they have been giving Medicaid expansion funds to those states willing to play ball with the President's schemes while withholding said expansion funds from states attempting to resist the ACA.

This is all Thug-Life (tm) Politics, and at this point, I suspect Justin Bieber could run DHHS better than Sibelius.

And that's the rub. By not adhereing to the President's fiat decree, the state of Washington, as led by their governor and, in this instance, Insurance Commissioner, are in direct compliance with the ACA. States who adhere to the decree cannot legally receive the federal subsidy.

[Yt]http://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6_12UFHSh-w&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6_12UFHSh-w%26feature%3Dyoutu.be[/ty]

Edit: Oh, man... they really did forget.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I don't know what you earn. I wasn't attributing that last paragraph to you specifically, but you went on a rant on what "liberals" do so I felt like I could do the same.


Fair enough.

Xeq wrote:
And yes, I know conservatives who believe that hourly employment is "not a real job" because overtime acts as a disincentive for your employer to give you more than 40 hours. "Real Americans" have salaried jobs and do as much work as is necessary. They believe that working your *** off is a moral imperative and anyone that does not do so, regardless of how much they actually make per hour or how much they spend, is beneath contempt. If you're not putting in at least sixty hours a week, you're contributing to the downfall of this country, even if you're getting paid $500/hour.


Then your conservative friends are ******* morons.

You work hard to get ahead because you choose to. Forcing others to that level is idiotic and is simply the inverse of the lazy person trying to extort the labor of the workers.

Xeq wrote:
I definitely agree with the in/out of your control part, but remember that what does and does not count as "out of your control" is VERY subjective and you can stretch that pretty far in either direction depending on how liberal or conservative you are.


I disagree that these things are subjective at all, but whatever.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
You paid what your out of pocket would have been at the majority of hospitals in the United States, but claim this is a great victory the United Kingdom? The only thing they did differently than would have occurred in the US: keep you overnight for observation; and that difference is almost entirely the fault of the Affordable Care Act. Any exorbitant costs incurred post-ACA would come from the bifurcation of healthcare facilities (the hospital) and healthcare providers (physician and nursing subcontractors) made mandatory by the ACA, and the very real reality that your hospital's providers are not actually in your insurance network.

Incidentally, my boss's last kidney stone cost him $380 out of pocket at the Emory Research Hospital.


What bizarro world do you live in that the total bill from the hospital for an overnight stay, x-rays and IV were less than $3k+?

The 501 quid was the total invoice from the hospital, not what my out of pocket was after insurance.


Then you should thank the people of the United Kingdom for subsidizing your care. Because they did.

Also, you should thank the people of the United States for subsidizing the drugs (morphine, etc. you stated) in Europe (including the UK). Because we do.

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