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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:15 am 
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580 ... latestnews

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A priest in Britain is under fire Monday for advising his congregation to shoplift in tough economic times, the Daily Mail reports.

Father Tim Jones, a 41-year-old clergyman at St. Lawrence Church in York, England, said that shoplifting — rather than prostitution or burglary — is sometimes the best option for poor people struggling to make ends meet, according to the Web site.

"My advice as a Christian priest is to shoplift," Jones reportedly told churchgoers during his Sunday sermon. "I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither."

"I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses — knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices," he continued.

"I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need ... My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."

Jones' sermon, meanwhile, has been blasted by police, the British Retail Consortium and a local MP who all say that shoplifting is a crime regardless of circumstances.

Click here to read more from the Daily Mail.


I admit I am no biblical scholar but I must have missed Gods hatred for Walmart and Target somewhere.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:30 am 
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Guess he forgot about that one commandment that says "Thou shalt not steal"

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:33 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580807,00.html?test=latestnews

Quote:

A priest in Britain is under fire Monday for advising his congregation to shoplift in tough economic times, the Daily Mail reports.

Father Tim Jones, a 41-year-old clergyman at St. Lawrence Church in York, England, said that shoplifting — rather than prostitution or burglary — is sometimes the best option for poor people struggling to make ends meet, according to the Web site.

"My advice as a Christian priest is to shoplift," Jones reportedly told churchgoers during his Sunday sermon. "I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither."

"I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses — knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices," he continued.

"I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need ... My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."

Jones' sermon, meanwhile, has been blasted by police, the British Retail Consortium and a local MP who all say that shoplifting is a crime regardless of circumstances.

Click here to read more from the Daily Mail.


I admit I am no biblical scholar but I must have missed Gods hatred for Walmart and Target somewhere.


I saw that yesterday and just shook my head sadly. So much is going wrong in churches today. People simply do not want to stand on Biblical truth anymore. They have forgotten (maybe they choose to) the Scripture:

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Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths."


You see so much of that nowadays, even on this board. People professing Christ, yet setting aside Scripture because they lean on their own understanding. It does not anger me nearly so much as it saddens me.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:04 am 
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Oh the irony ...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Oh the irony ...


About cultural hegemony within the "Christian Community" (quotes because hegemony is a myth)?

Also, that's a stupid idea. Wal-Mart is indeed going to pass the costs onto the consumers who shop their in the forms of higher costs. Guess who can least afford those cost increases?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Khross wrote:
Oh the irony ...


About cultural hegemony within the "Christian Community" (quotes because hegemony is a myth)?

Also, that's a stupid idea. Wal-Mart is indeed going to pass the costs onto the consumers who shop their in the forms of higher costs. Guess who can least afford those cost increases?

Your mom?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:04 pm 
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Ooooh, burn!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:05 pm 
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Damn ... in my face.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:07 pm 
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Dang right, in your face.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:59 pm 
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I have high hopes for this thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:52 pm 
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So back on track. Didn't he say he recognizes that ultimately we all pay for the thefts? Then continue on to say stealing from "rich" national brands only hurts them?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:06 pm 
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Nah, he said that while stealing from (Inter)national chains will cause the prices to rise, it's ok, because we'll all pay for the stolen merchandise via those higher prices.

It stuns me, I can understand talking about taking food if you're starving, but this crosses the line.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Quote:
"I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need ... My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich."


He could have found scriptures to back up the latter statement, but there's no support for theft in the bible in any way. Both the ancient hebrew law ostensibly provided by God (Primarily in the book of Leviticus) and commands given the early christian congregation made provisions for a social safety net for the poor, at the expense of the wealthy, so nobody could end up starving. (In fact, the Communist mantra "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" is essentially just a paraphrase of 2 Corinthians 8:12–15). That said, there were heavy penalties for theft in the old testament, and the new testament does nothing to condone it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:17 am 
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Screeling wrote:
Rafael wrote:
Khross wrote:
Oh the irony ...


About cultural hegemony within the "Christian Community" (quotes because hegemony is a myth)?

Also, that's a stupid idea. Wal-Mart is indeed going to pass the costs onto the consumers who shop their in the forms of higher costs. Guess who can least afford those cost increases?

Your mom?


Screeling, dude, I'm giving you the "best post ever award" for that one. LOL

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:18 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Nah, he said that while stealing from (Inter)national chains will cause the prices to rise, it's ok, because we'll all pay for the stolen merchandise via those higher prices.

It stuns me, I can understand talking about taking food if you're starving, but this crosses the line.



Isn't that kind of like communism, from an economical standpoint, with the way the money is redistributed?


Is Robin Hood a communist? That new one with Russell Crowe looks freakin' awesome. (even if it does look a bit like Gladiator part 2)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:53 am 
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Nevandal wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Nah, he said that while stealing from (Inter)national chains will cause the prices to rise, it's ok, because we'll all pay for the stolen merchandise via those higher prices.

It stuns me, I can understand talking about taking food if you're starving, but this crosses the line.



Isn't that kind of like communism, from an economical standpoint, with the way the money is redistributed?


Is Robin Hood a communist? That new one with Russell Crowe looks freakin' awesome. (even if it does look a bit like Gladiator part 2)

No, Robin Hood was actually quite the opposite of a communist. Prince John was overtaxing the people for his own well-being, i.e. stealing wealth from the commoner. Robin Hood was returning the money back to the people. In fact, I would argue Robin Hood was a libertarian. The people's wealth belonged to the people and the government only needed enough to allow for the basic needs for the people instead of the luxurious lifestyle of the ruling class. You could say he was very much in the image of our founding fathers, in fact.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:05 am 
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Nevandal wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Nah, he said that while stealing from (Inter)national chains will cause the prices to rise, it's ok, because we'll all pay for the stolen merchandise via those higher prices.

It stuns me, I can understand talking about taking food if you're starving, but this crosses the line.



Isn't that kind of like communism, from an economical standpoint, with the way the money is redistributed?


On a very simplistic level - Yup (although I'd say it looks more like socialism).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:22 am 
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It's really not like communism or socialism because he's not making any arguement that property is held in common or for the common good, or even that people have a right to the wealth of others. He's straight-up calling it "stealing"; all he's really doing is saying "survival is more important than property rights."

That said, and as others have pointed out, there's no Biblical support for this whatsoever. Stealing from another, even when absolutely necessary, is a sin. Like any other sin, it's forgivable, and stealing to survive while regretting the necessesity of it is not the same as stealing without regret while counting on asking forgiveness later without any real repentance.

Encouraging people to steal, however, puts one on much shakier ground.

Mark 9:42 NIV wrote:
And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."


I don't think this can really be broadened into any particular economic or social viewpoint. It's just straight-up encouraging people to steal. I can't think of any reasonable theological argument to support it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's really not like communism or socialism because he's not making any arguement that property is held in common or for the common good, or even that people have a right to the wealth of others.


When you look (solely) at the quote being discussed in the posts by myself and Nev:

Quote:
"I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses — knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices," he continued.


He is saying that the larger whole will pay for the thieves. That is, at it's core the premise of socialist economics.

You'll note that the use of the word "like" multiple times, as well as the modifiying phrase "very simplistic level" would render any discussion of higher theory an exercise in pedantism.

As for the whole Biblical aspect I'd refer those who are interested to Aquinas' Summa Theologica, II-II q. 66 article 7, as I hold him in high esteem as a theologian.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:35 pm 
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The problem with that is that while we may consider communism/socialism a form of theft, spreading the costs of supporting the poor around to everyone in the form of higher prices isn't a form of theft in the internal logic of either system.

This guy isn't trying to say "it's not stealing to take things whose price will be born by everyone" he's saying "yes, it's stealing, but do it anyhow because the cost won't be all that much when its spread all around".

The end result may be very similar but its really not communist/socialist thinking because he's not advocating that the system should work this way - he's simply saying "go ahead and steal because its better than the alternative".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:08 pm 
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He is saying because costs are distributed it is less wrong, the only difference is amount of wrong - communism sees it as not at all wrong, socialism sees it as the tiniest bit wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:15 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
He is saying because costs are distributed it is less wrong, the only difference is amount of wrong - communism sees it as not at all wrong, socialism sees it as the tiniest bit wrong.


In a theological sense that's where he's falling off the wagon since there is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that stealing is less wrong if you distribute the long-term effects across more people.

In a non-theological sense he sort of has a point since the long-term effects of a theft from a large store are distributed across more people and harm any of them less. However it's sort of like arguing that punching 100 people is less wrong than beating one to death. It is, but only because you're using more people as a buffer to absorb the harm, and its still ultimately making the excuse that because the act is less wrong than some other act, that therefore excuses it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:41 pm 
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/derail on

Vindicarre wrote:
{snip}

It stuns me, I can understand talking about taking food if you're starving, but this crosses the line.


Like, that weiner dog in your avatar?! :twisted:

/derail off

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:09 pm 
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I was hungry ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:20 pm 
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It's all good when you have the big man on your side,

Multiheaded conglomerates are just begging to be made into interesting furniture.

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