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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:31 pm 
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...but maybe not how you'd think.

http://time.com/79734/united-church-of- ... -marriage/

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United Church of Christ Sues North Carolina to Allow Gay Marriage

It's the first time for a national Christian denomination to sue in favor of same-sex marriage, citing restricted freedom of religion. Currently ministers who marry couples without a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail

When Kathleen Smith and Lisa Cloninger got engaged last October, they hoped to get married at Holy Covenant United Church of Christ. It was after all, their religious community and the church that had been their home for their 13-year relationship. But there was a problem: Holy Covenant is in Charlotte, North Carolina, a state that does not allow ministers to perform legal same-sex marriages. Ministers who do marry a couple that has not yet obtained a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail.

On Monday morning, Holy Covenant’s denomination, the United Church of Christ (UCC), along with ministers of other Charlotte area congregations including a rabbi, filed a lawsuit challenging state marriage laws for restricting ministers’ free exercise of religion. The UCC is also seeking preliminary injunction that would allow ministers to choose whether to perform a religious marriage. The case appears to be the first time a national Christian denomination has challenged a state’s marriage laws.

The lawsuit has been in the works since 2012, when North Carolina voters approved Amendment One, a constitutional ban on gay marriage, with 61% of the vote. State laws prevent ministers from performing weddings if the couple does not already have a marriage license, and so religious wedding ceremonies are at odds with the law even if ministers are not sanctioning civil marriages.

Earlier this spring, the UCC, the lead plaintiff, reached out to local congregations, including Holy Covenant, to ask pastors if any church members might be candidates to join the suit. Three other couples from other churches have joined the Smith-Cloningers, and the group is suing the state’s attorney general Roy Cooper as well as other county district attorneys and registers of deeds.

The effort is part of the UCC’s long history of social justice advocacy. The mainline Protestant denomination—President Barack Obama’s own church denomination in Chicago—has more than one million members and 5,100 congregations nationwide, including 150 churches in North Carolina, and the UCC general synod passed a resolution supporting marriage equality in 2005. “For 40 years or more we have been seeking justice and equality for gay and lesbian people,” explains Geoffrey Black, president and general minister of the United Church of Christ. “This is the moment when we have an opportunity to seek justice and equality for gay and lesbian people, and so we are taking that matter very seriously.”

Smith and Cloninger are planning to have their religious ceremony at Holy Covenant in October no matter the outcome of the case. “We’ve bought dresses, we’ve sent save the date cards, we’ve booked a reception hall,” says Smith, who along with Cloninger is a North Carolina native. “Nothing could make us happier than if we were able to have both a religious and legal ceremony with everyone that we love around us and our pastor legally able to officiate that ceremony.”

Nancy Allison, the pastor of Holy Covenant and an individual plaintiff in the case, is willing to face any repercussions that may come. “I can’t imagine the law enforcement of North Carolina coming after a clergy person for doing their job, but if I were to be arrested for this, I would gladly face those arrest charges,” Allison explains. “I can do no other than move forward under my convictions.”

Certainly an interesting tack. Rather surprised no one's thought of it before.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:30 am 
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Where is everyone complaining about thoze evil religious people trying to force their views on everyone though government force.

Also I'd like to point out that if the government got out of the marriage business then the church could do whatever they want.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:09 am 
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Good job out of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:59 am 
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I don't approve of this any more than I approve of the reverse, even though I agree with their stance. This issue needs to be addressed through the legislature, not the courts.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:38 am 
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Actually, this is the first time it's unequivocably a matter for the courts. This is a restriction on freedom of religion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:37 am 
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Ya know, I was thinking. it could only be a good thing for the courts to affirm a church's right to decide for whom they perform (or not perform) wedding services. How would that be for some unintended consequences.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Actually, this is the first time it's unequivocably a matter for the courts. This is a restriction on freedom of religion.


The fact that a minister can't perform a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony without a license is a matter of religious freedom. It isn't a reason to drag gay marriage into the courts. It should be allowed whether or not it involves same-sex couples, and whether or not same-sex marriage is permitted.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:29 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Actually, this is the first time it's unequivocably a matter for the courts. This is a restriction on freedom of religion.


The fact that a minister can't perform a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony without a license is a matter of religious freedom. It isn't a reason to drag gay marriage into the courts. It should be allowed whether or not it involves same-sex couples, and whether or not same-sex marriage is permitted.


No. You missed this:

OP wrote:
It's the first time for a national Christian denomination to sue in favor of same-sex marriage, citing restricted freedom of religion. Currently ministers who marry couples without a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail.


This isn't about legal recognition. This is about them being fined and penalized and even facing jail time for performing a same-sex wedding.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:33 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Actually, this is the first time it's unequivocably a matter for the courts. This is a restriction on freedom of religion.


The fact that a minister can't perform a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony without a license is a matter of religious freedom. It isn't a reason to drag gay marriage into the courts. It should be allowed whether or not it involves same-sex couples, and whether or not same-sex marriage is permitted.


No. You missed this:

OP wrote:
It's the first time for a national Christian denomination to sue in favor of same-sex marriage, citing restricted freedom of religion. Currently ministers who marry couples without a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail.


This isn't about legal recognition. This is about them being fined and penalized and even facing jail time for performing a same-sex wedding.

I didn't miss that at all. Ministers should not be fined for performing a non binding marriage ceremony regardless of the circumstances. That line was the impetus for what I said.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Actually, this is the first time it's unequivocably a matter for the courts. This is a restriction on freedom of religion.


The fact that a minister can't perform a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony without a license is a matter of religious freedom. It isn't a reason to drag gay marriage into the courts. It should be allowed whether or not it involves same-sex couples, and whether or not same-sex marriage is permitted.


No. You missed this:

OP wrote:
It's the first time for a national Christian denomination to sue in favor of same-sex marriage, citing restricted freedom of religion. Currently ministers who marry couples without a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail.


This isn't about legal recognition. This is about them being fined and penalized and even facing jail time for performing a same-sex wedding.

I didn't miss that at all. Ministers should not be fined for performing a non binding marriage ceremony regardless of the circumstances. That line was the impetus for what I said.


It's still an infringement upon religious freedom. Which is still a matter for the courts, not the legislature, although the legislature is welcome to fix it so the courts don't have to kick their asses.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:48 pm 
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Talya wrote:
It's still an infringement upon religious freedom. Which is still a matter for the courts, not the legislature, although the legislature is welcome to fix it so the courts don't have to kick their asses.


The courts do not kick anyone's ***. They have no power to penalize the legislature.

In any case, the infringement of religious freedom comes from penalizing ministers from performing ceremonies, not from the reason for those ceremonies. Legalizing gay marriage via this case would simply legalize gay marriage and actually leave the infringement intact. They are trying to attack one law by calling into question a different one, and the courts won't go for that.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:00 am 
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Talya wrote:
OP wrote:
It's the first time for a national Christian denomination to sue in favor of same-sex marriage, citing restricted freedom of religion. Currently ministers who marry couples without a marriage license can face misdemeanor charges punishable by up to 120 days in jail.


This isn't about legal recognition. This is about them being fined and penalized and even facing jail time for performing a same-sex wedding.

Because they tried to issue a Marriage Certificate (the legal document) with those ceremonies.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:56 am 
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Marriage Certificates are not issued by the church. They're issued by the state. The officiant does have to sign them, and typically they're signed right after the ceremony (or right before if people don't mind seeing the bride early)


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