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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:18 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
So killing a kid in a garage after you've left it open makes you a sociopath, but killing one in the womb after you left it open is an acceptable social view?

This assumes an embryo or fetus is a "kid".


And yours assumes he or she is not. I would argue she/he is as much a kid as an adolescent with sufficient maturity to travel to a foreign country.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:

Thing is, I've read more about this case and Markus Kaarma doesn't come off as innocent in a lot of the reports.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/d ... -1.1782604
Quote:
Police say they want to know whether a Montana man was stoned or drunk when he fatally shot a German exchange student.
Homeowner Markus Kaarma, 29, is accused of setting a trap in his Missoula garage to lure in would-be burglars so he could unleash deadly force — after growing frustrated by two recent robberies and an alleged lack of law enforcement.

Police think the gunman might "have been impaired by alcohol, dangerous drugs, other drugs, intoxicating substances or a combination of the above, at the time of the incident," according to a newly published court document.
A judge granted the warrant for a drug test for any intoxicants that could be in Kaarma's system from the time he killed Diren Dede, 17, on April 27, authorities said. Officers say they found a glass jar of pot in Kaarma's house the day of the shooting.
Authorities will likely not release the results until the investigation is over.

Prosecutors say that Kaarma and his girlfriend, Janelle Pflager, set up sensors and a video monitor — and intentionally left the door open to bait a criminal — the night of the shooting.
He is charged with deliberate homicide.
Kaarma rejects the allegations. He said that he left the door open to air out his garage after he and his girlfriend smoked cigarettes.


Hmmmm....that changes a lot.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:21 pm 
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It doesn't change a lot until after a determination is made if he was.. and even then, it might not. Being drunk does not remove your right to defend yourself or your home.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:50 am 
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Being drunk in your own home is not a crime, but surely setting a trap to lure in burglars to use deadly force is.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:51 am 
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..that is, if they can prove intent.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:11 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
..that is, if they can prove intent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/m ... -1.1772463
Quote:
... prosecutors painted an entirely different picture, saying the homeowner and his wife, Janelle Pflager, staged an intricate trap so that they could corner and ambush the suspects.

... a hair stylist told police Kaarma had mentioned days earlier that he was staying up most nights hoping to catch the suspects who burglarized his home, stealing cellphones and credit cards.

“I’m just waiting to shoot some f--king kid,” he allegedly told the stylist during a visit to the local salon.

Pflager told investigators that she had placed a purse in the garage the night before the shooting so that it could be seen with the door rolled open. She placed a baby monitor in the garage and had motion sensors installed outside, court documents obtained by the paper show.

If this article is accurate, it shouldn't be too difficult.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:17 am 
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Your home is your castle, or at least it should be. I don't see what the problem is with setting traps.

Burglarize at your own peril.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Taskiss, if that is true, then yeah....he needs to do prison time. Sounds like he planned a murder, he just didn't select the victim himself.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:08 pm 
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LadyKate:

I'm sorry, but there was no murder. If someone feels threatened enough in their own home and certain enough a repeat crime will occur to go through the measures you are claiming make this murder, then homeowner's claim about police non-responsiveness was demonstrated by the body they drug off the guy's lawn. He either has the right to defend his home against intruders and thieves, or he doesn't. There's no middle ground.

I can guarantee you one thing, though ...

That garage will never be hopped again.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:17 pm 
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I disagree with you Khross, but since I cannot find any laws to back me up, then it will just have to be on moral ground...which, I'm aware carries absolutely no weight in arguments with this group, but I'm saying it anyway.
Luring someone in just to kill them is morally reprehensible.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:29 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


Thank you, RD, that's essentially what I wished I could have said, haha, I appreciate that. :) I actually thought about it, and perhaps I would use the defense that this guy essentially set up a booby trap, which is illegal:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/booby-traps/

He didn't exactly set up a trip wire, but one could argue that opening the door, putting out bait, setting up cameras and having his gun ready with the intent to shoot once he saw him on camera, could fall under the booby trap category.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:33 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


Under what statute or case is this found? Entrapment maybe, but that applies to the police.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:36 pm 
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DE...it would not be entrapment, I looked that one up already:

Quote:
Entrapment is a defense to criminal charges when it is established that the agent or official originated the idea of the crime and induced the accused to engage in it. If the crime was promoted by a private person who has no connection to the government, it is not entrapment. A person induced by a friend to sell drugs has no legal excuse when police are informed that the person has agreed to make the sale.



But I still think it would be booby-trapping....if a booby-trap is legally defined as:

Quote:
...any concealed or camouflaged device designed to cause bodily injury when triggered by any action of a person making contact with the device. This term includes guns, ammunition, or explosive devices attached to trip wires or other triggering mechanisms, sharpened stakes, nails, spikes, electrical devices, lines or wires with hooks attached, and devices for the production of toxic fumes or gases.


Then I would think that the purse and the camera were the "triggers" for the gun that the guy was sitting there waiting with, along with the intent to kill whomever came in his garage and "triggered" the booby trap.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Also DE, here is a case for you: http://articles.latimes.com/1999/dec/19/news/mn-45474

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:50 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:


that's A case but not the case I'm looking for. What I mean, is a case where a legal principle was established that luring someone into committing a crime removed your ability to defend yourself against them; something from an appellate or supreme court or something like that.

the case you're citing is about booby traps, which is a different (if similar) issue. A booby trap is a device; that's rather different than confronting the person and shooting them yourself.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Ok, hypothetical scenarios:

a) A guy opens his garage door, sets a purse on a table, points a shotgun at it, and sets up a trigger with a piece of string, and waits for a burglar to set it off, intending for the shotgun to kill the intruder.

b) A guy opens his garage door, sets a purse on a table, points a camera at it, and goes offside with a gun, waiting for a burglar to come, intending to kill the intruder with the gun.

Are the two scenarios *really* that different that a good lawyer could not argue that this was clearly a booby-trap?

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


Under what statute or case is this found? Entrapment maybe, but that applies to the police.

I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. The booby-trap cases LK mentioned would likely be relevant, as would various precedents involving provocation and self-defense claims. Also, even in castle doctrine cases, the homeowner pulling the trigger still has to show that the shooting was reasonable and necessary, and I'd bet my left you-know-what that attempting to lure the criminal in the first place would negate that in most cases. At the very least, luring would certainly go to intent/premeditation. Here's a case that a quick Google turned up - Byron David Smith - but I can't really vouch for it or dig deeper at the moment, as (sadly), I'm at work.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:03 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


Under what statute or case is this found? Entrapment maybe, but that applies to the police.

I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. The booby-trap cases LK mentioned would likely be relevant, as would various precedents involving provocation and self-defense claims. Also, even in castle doctrine cases, the homeowner pulling the trigger still has to show that the shooting was reasonable and necessary, and I'd bet my left you-know-what that attempting to lure the criminal in the first place would negate that in most cases. At the very least, luring would certainly go to intent/premeditation. Here's a case that a quick Google turned up - Byron David Smith - but I can't really vouch for it or dig deeper at the moment, as (sadly), I'm at work.



Interesting similarities:

Quote:
A number of aspects of the case were noted by police as being inconsistent with self-defense. Smith moved his truck earlier in the day. He claimed it was in order to clean his garage. Prosecutors argued at his trial that it was an attempt to make the house look abandoned in order to lure the burglars into his home.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:03 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
that's A case but not the case I'm looking for.

Did you wave your hand sideways and stare intently at the screen when you typed that? :D

Diamondeye wrote:
What I mean, is a case where a legal principle was established that luring someone into committing a crime removed your ability to defend yourself against them; something from an appellate or supreme court or something like that.

I'm guessing there's no controlling precedent, as the law would vary from state to state. I should note that my analysis is based on general Common Law principles, not anything specific to Montana law.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:07 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Ok, hypothetical scenarios:

a) A guy opens his garage door, sets a purse on a table, points a shotgun at it, and sets up a trigger with a piece of string, and waits for a burglar to set it off, intending for the shotgun to kill the intruder.

b) A guy opens his garage door, sets a purse on a table, points a camera at it, and goes offside with a gun, waiting for a burglar to come, intending to kill the intruder with the gun.

Are the two scenarios *really* that different that a good lawyer could not argue that this was clearly a booby-trap?


Uh yes.. they are. A booby trap is a device, period. It has nothing to do with luring someone or not luring them. It says so right in the definition you linked.

Whether someone used a booby trap is a separate issue from luring them. in the case from Wisconsin you cited, the man booby trapped his shed but he didn't lure anyone.. in fact, he took precautions to AVOID someone, like a casual teenager just setting the trap off. The victim had to work at getting in to set it off.

The issues may seem intuitively similar but they're different. One is the principle of setting up a mechanical device to attack people in an automated fashion. The issue there is that no human judgement is present when it's set off. The other is attempting to lure people into committing crimes, which brings up the issue of whether they otherwise would have committed it anyhow. They aren't the same, and a lawyer trying to claim this was a "booby trap" because they "really aren't that different" on some intuitive level would look like a fool.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:11 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
that's A case but not the case I'm looking for.

Did you wave your hand sideways and stare intently at the screen when you typed that? :D


Now I wish I had.

Diamondeye wrote:
Quote:
What I mean, is a case where a legal principle was established that luring someone into committing a crime removed your ability to defend yourself against them; something from an appellate or supreme court or something like that.

I'm guessing there's no controlling precedent, as the law would vary from state to state. I should note that my analysis is based on general Common Law principles, not anything specific to Montana law.


If there's no controlling case, then it can't be categorically stated. Common Law principles have some weight, but they aren't ironclad or sacred.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:14 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Actually, LK, the law backs you up on this entirely. Deliberately trying to lure someone into committing a crime against you so you can kill them negates your ability to claim self-defense and constitutes premeditated murder. Khross may think that's wrong, but he's the one making an exclusively moral, rather than a legal, argument.


Under what statute or case is this found? Entrapment maybe, but that applies to the police.

I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. The booby-trap cases LK mentioned would likely be relevant, as would various precedents involving provocation and self-defense claims. Also, even in castle doctrine cases, the homeowner pulling the trigger still has to show that the shooting was reasonable and necessary, and I'd bet my left you-know-what that attempting to lure the criminal in the first place would negate that in most cases. At the very least, luring would certainly go to intent/premeditation. Here's a case that a quick Google turned up - Byron David Smith - but I can't really vouch for it or dig deeper at the moment, as (sadly), I'm at work.



Interesting similarities:

Quote:
A number of aspects of the case were noted by police as being inconsistent with self-defense. Smith moved his truck earlier in the day. He claimed it was in order to clean his garage. Prosecutors argued at his trial that it was an attempt to make the house look abandoned in order to lure the burglars into his home.


It should be noted that in that case, the guy shot the victims AGAIN after they were already down and wounded - in the case of the female, under the chin. He almost certainly would have been nailed for murder regardless in that case because it's an accepted principle that once a threat is ended your justification for force ends. It doesn't help much with this case.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:34 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
If there's no controlling case, then it can't be categorically stated. Common Law principles have some weight, but they aren't ironclad or sacred.

Fair enough. My original comment was an overcompensation in response to Khross' comment. That said, I'm still pretty darn confident that luring/baiting with the specific intent to kill any criminal that takes the bait is going to get you sent up the river in most cases (provided the prosecution can show that you had such specific intent, of course). At the very least, you're very likely to find yourself in front of a jury arguing for your life/freedom, so all things considered, I'd recommend against it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:57 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
If there's no controlling case, then it can't be categorically stated. Common Law principles have some weight, but they aren't ironclad or sacred.

Fair enough. My original comment was an overcompensation in response to Khross' comment. That said, I'm still pretty darn confident that luring/baiting with the specific intent to kill any criminal that takes the bait is going to get you sent up the river in most cases (provided the prosecution can show that you had such specific intent, of course). At the very least, you're very likely to find yourself in front of a jury arguing for your life/freedom, so all things considered, I'd recommend against it.


Well, yes, gambling one's future on the vagaries of the legal system is never a good idea. By the same token, baiting a criminal does not excuse the criminal himself, and it might be immaterial. Suppose that rather than an unarmed teenager, this had attracted the attention of several violent gang members. Would we then be saying "oh, well he baited them, therefore when the Latin Kings kicked in the door from the garage to the house he should have just let them rape his wife?"

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