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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Whether intentionally or not, there is a "cult of Obama", and it would take a better argument than the usual suspects here are capable of mounting to change my opinion that this administration has taken every advantage of that "cult".

Three words: Nobel Peace Prize.

That said, there was a "cult of Reagan" too, which was also taken advantage of. Of the two, I personally believe RR's cult had more merit, and I believe that history will remember RR much more favorably than BO.

I don't think history will be so kind to BO, I'm guessing he will forever be known for being the first black man elected president, and then rated somewhere just above Jimmy Carter in effectiveness.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:46 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
That's the point he's making rorithas. Nor did al gore claim he invented the internet.

Al Gore wrote:
During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Inventing != creating

He crafted the legislation responsible for ARPAnet. He wasn't claiming to have invented tcp/ip. His statement might have been a bit of overreach but was factually correct.


Last edited by TheRiov on Thu May 29, 2014 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:24 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Well then, I guess it's a good thing Obama really is a socialist, Muslim, terrorist from Kenya who hates America, Christians and white people so the Republicans didn't have to rely on such dirty tricks when running against him.


You will note that those are not things that either McCain or Romney (the people actually running against Obama) put forth about him, and while all inaccurate they actually pertained to him as opposed to Obama's campaign which focused almost entirely on George Bush (who he was not actually running against). Try to stick to counterexamples that are actually examples of the same behavior.

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Oh, and of course it was fortunate for the Republicans that John Kerry really was a filthy traitor who lied about his military service in order to aid the Vietnamese communists because he hates America. And then there's Bill Clinton who, of course, was a communist drug kingpin who had people murdered, was conspiring with Janet Reno to take away all our guns and install a UN dictatorship, and who, it goes without saying, hates America.


Again, you seem to have confused what people opposed to the Democratic candidate were saying about him with what his Republican opponent was saying about him. You also seem to have inaccurate statements about the Democratic candidate confused with openly campaigning against the incumbent who is not running for re-election... hence the endless use of the phrase "same failed policies" in Obama's campaigns.

And if you really want to play fabrication Olympics, let's talk about the fabricated disciplinary action against George Bush in the TANG and the wild theories running around about Palin's children.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:31 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
That's the point he's making rorithas. Nor did al gore claim he invented the internet.


No, but in Palin's case, Tina Fey DID say she could "see Russia from her house" and because she was A) impersonating Palin and B) closely resembled her, people started thinking she actually did say it.

In Gore's case what he said was he "took the initiative in creating the internet", which while not the same thing as claiming to have invented it, is certainly a case of massive self-aggrandizement since any "initiative" he took in fostering its development was a drop in the bucket of everyone else's, at most.

The difference between the two is that Palin had someone else's statement attributed to her due to a bizarre coincidence of physical appearance, Al Gore did actually say something strongly resembling the "I invented the internet" meme.

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He crafted the legislation responsible for DARPAnet. He wasn't claiming to have invented tcp/ip. His statement might have been a bit of overreach but was factually correct.


It was a lot more than "a bit" of an overreach.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:39 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:57 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
That's the point he's making rorithas. Nor did al gore claim he invented the internet.


No, but in Palin's case, Tina Fey DID say she could "see Russia from her house" and because she was A) impersonating Palin and B) closely resembled her, people started thinking she actually did say it.

In Gore's case what he said was he "took the initiative in creating the internet", which while not the same thing as claiming to have invented it, is certainly a case of massive self-aggrandizement since any "initiative" he took in fostering its development was a drop in the bucket of everyone else's, at most.

The difference between the two is that Palin had someone else's statement attributed to her due to a bizarre coincidence of physical appearance, Al Gore did actually say something strongly resembling the "I invented the internet" meme.

It is a paraphrasing of garbage that came out of her mouth (but taken out of context):

Sarah Palin wrote:
The basis for the line was Governor Palin's 11 September 2008 appearance on ABC News, her first major interview after being tapped as the vice-presidential nominee. During that appearance, interviewer Charles Gibson asked her what insight she had gained from living so close to Russia, and she responded: "They're our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska"


http://www.youtube.com/embed/JXL86v8NoGk

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:06 am 
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That's remarkably different from being able to see Russia from your house.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:29 am 
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and "taking the initiative creating the internet" is remarkably different than "invented the internet"


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:41 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
You also seem to have inaccurate statements about the Democratic candidate confused with openly campaigning against the incumbent who is not running for re-election... hence the endless use of the phrase "same failed policies" in Obama's campaigns.

Two words: Jimmy Carter. Republicans have been running against him for 30 years. In the 1984 campaign, Reagan talked about Mondale taking us back to the failed policies of the last administration. In the 1988 and 1992 campaigns, Dukakis and Clinton were going to take us back to the Carter era. I don't remember Carter featuring heavily in '96 and 2000, but in 2008, the Carter playbook came out again and Obama was characterized as the most liberal Democratic nominee since Jimmy Carter, looking to undo the Democrats' move to the center that Clinton (now that he was out of office) could safely be credited with. And so on, and so forth. It's standard politics to take the most recent (or even not so recent) unpopular President of the other party and try to associate your opponent with that guy. And given the increasingly clear party sorting and polarization, it's actually a reasonably fair charge when that last guy was only a term or two ago. Mondale and Dukakis really would have tried to reverse a lot of Reagan's policies and their administrations would have looked a lot more like updated versions of Carter's. Ditto with McCain and Romney vis-à-vis Bush. And hey, in 2016, you won't hear me complaining when the Republicans argue that the Democratic nominee represents a continuation of Obama's supposedly failed policies, because chance are, he or she really will!


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:58 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes his inauguration just happens to be the reason that this world changing effect starts.

It was his acceptance of the nomination, not the inauguration. But either way, you don't think those are kind of, you know, natural moments to highlight as the beginning of a change in direction? Sure, the energy level and "poetic" factor were a bit much for my more curmudgeonly tastes, but whatever.

When Reagan talked about American renewal, a second American Revolution, history looking back on the period of his administration as "the golden years", etc. at his nomination speeches and inaugural addresses, was he also fostering a cult of personality, or was he just engaging in the same puffery intended to inspire and rally his audience that Obama was engaging in?



A change in policy direction yes, a change that affects the tides - no. A change that begins the earth to heal - no you're not an incarnation of nature you're a politician holding office.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:05 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes his inauguration just happens to be the reason that this world changing effect starts.

That is clearly not what he's saying. You're inserting meaning based on your own bias. This may be a bit no-true-Scotsman, but no reasonable listener would take that away from what he was saying.


Right so the only change is him getting in office and the results are world environmental changes and earth healing - and its wrong to think hes saying these changes will be changed because of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:22 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
That's remarkably different from being able to see Russia from your house.

Our next-door-neighbor... versus see them from my house. I could see those being radically different statements.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:47 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
A change in policy direction yes, a change that affects the tides - no. A change that begins the earth to heal - no you're not an incarnation of nature you're a politician holding office.

Sure, and America is not "a shining city on the hill", a tax cut and arms-build up is not "a second American Revolution" (nor, I should note for the self-styled libertarians in the room, is a tax cut and a return to isolationism), three unrelated countries that oppose American interests are not an "axis of evil", etc. It's poetic license for the sake of inspiration and persuasion. These are lines from speeches, not policy papers. It's fine to not like them, or to like some but not others, but it's just bias that makes you think Obama's speech was outside the norm of political puffery.


Last edited by RangerDave on Thu May 29, 2014 10:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:50 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
and "taking the initiative creating the internet" is remarkably different than "invented the internet"
Your paraphrase isn't accurate... it lacks his claim of singular distinction - "I took the initiative" - where the internet is concerned. It's got the imagery of him elbowing himself from the back of the line to the front, past the real creators.

Besides, the claim "I created" is not all that different from "I invented", no matter how much you spin, and the fact he claimed a singular ownership of either creating OR inventing the internet is preposterous.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:58 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Inventing != creating

He crafted the legislation responsible for ARPAnet. He wasn't claiming to have invented tcp/ip. His statement might have been a bit of overreach but was factually correct.


Get with the times, TheRiov!

These days it's politically correct for your faction to shout "you didn't build that!" when talking about such things.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:02 am 
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http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Quote:
Although Vice-President Gore's phrasing might have been a bit clumsy (and perhaps self-serving), he was not claiming that he "invented" the Internet in the sense of having designed or implemented it, but rather that he was responsible, in an economic and legislative sense, for fostering the development the technology that we now know as the Internet.
To claim that Gore was seriously trying to take credit for the "invention" of the Internet is, frankly, just silly political posturing that arose out of a close presidential campaign. Gore never used the word "invent," and the words "create" and "invent" have distinctly different meanings: the former is used in the sense of "to bring about" or "to bring into existence" while the latter is generally used to signify the first instance of someone's thinking up or implementing an idea.

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As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high speed computing and communication. As an example, he sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural disasters and other crises.

As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into an "Interagency Network." Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush's administrations, Gore secured the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in 1991. This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.


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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:04 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
That's remarkably different from being able to see Russia from your house.

Our next-door-neighbor... versus see them from my house. I could see those being radically different statements.



You know, since it was't patently obvious from her statement that she was talking about alaska rather than her house, and she didn't specify that it was one particular island or anything. :roll:

The only reason its 'garbage' is that everyone wants to think suspicion of Russia makes you a die hard cold warrior who cant let go of the past. Georgia and Ukraine could tell you something about that. Alaskans have been aware of it longer than most of the rest of us.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:08 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
You also seem to have inaccurate statements about the Democratic candidate confused with openly campaigning against the incumbent who is not running for re-election... hence the endless use of the phrase "same failed policies" in Obama's campaigns.

Two words: Jimmy Carter. Republicans have been running against him for 30 years. In the 1984 campaign, Reagan talked about Mondale taking us back to the failed policies of the last administration. In the 1988 and 1992 campaigns, Dukakis and Clinton were going to take us back to the Carter era. I don't remember Carter featuring heavily in '96 and 2000, but in 2008, the Carter playbook came out again and Obama was characterized as the most liberal Democratic nominee since Jimmy Carter, looking to undo the Democrats' move to the center that Clinton (now that he was out of office) could safely be credited with. And so on, and so forth. It's standard politics to take the most recent (or even not so recent) unpopular President of the other party and try to associate your opponent with that guy. And given the increasingly clear party sorting and polarization, it's actually a reasonably fair charge when that last guy was only a term or two ago. Mondale and Dukakis really would have tried to reverse a lot of Reagan's policies and their administrations would have looked a lot more like updated versions of Carter's. Ditto with McCain and Romney vis-à-vis Bush. And hey, in 2016, you won't hear me complaining when the Republicans argue that the Democratic nominee represents a continuation of Obama's supposedly failed policies, because chance are, he or she really will!


Republicans have certainly mentioned Jimmy Carter.. in some campaigns: as you point out he didnt figure in some either. Obama ran his entire campaign as if he were running against George Bush both times. The difference in degree is enormous.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:16 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
That's remarkably different from being able to see Russia from your house.

Our next-door-neighbor... versus see them from my house. I could see those being radically different statements.

You know, since it was't patently obvious from her statement that she was talking about alaska rather than her house, and she didn't specify that it was one particular island or anything. :roll:

You really are a troll now aren't you?

When someone uses a poor analogy (like Al Gore taking credit for the invention of the internet via budget approvals) people will parody it which is natural and has happened since the advent of satire. The real problem is the people who cannot tell the difference between hyperbolic parody and the actual statement provided. They are truly ****.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:18 am 
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Alaska closer to Russia than Western Europe is. In geographic terms, they truly are neighbors. The real issue is that most of you aren't aware that, yes, they actually are that close together. That's why Russia owned Alaska at one point. You're also idiots who, when this is pointed out to you, want to continue making cracks in order to deflect attention from not being suitably educated in geography.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:27 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Alaska closer to Russia than Western Europe is. In geographic terms, they truly are neighbors. The real issue is that most of you aren't aware that, yes, they actually are that close together. That's why Russia owned Alaska at one point. You're also idiots who, when this is pointed out to you, want to continue making cracks in order to deflect attention from not being suitably educated in geography.

Image

What did the grizzly bears and puffins that live on the Aleutian islands learn about Russia? Since the question was, verbatim, "What insight into Russian actions particularly in the last couple of weeks, given the proximity of the state to Russia, given you?"

Note this is not a geography question ^

I am sorry I trod upon your Palin boner a little bit. You can go back to jerking it to pictures of her holding shotguns in a bikini now :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential media
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:50 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
I am sorry I trod upon your Palin boner a little bit. You can go back to jerking it to pictures of her holding shotguns in a bikini now :lol:
Wait - there are pictures of her wearing a bikini and fondling a shotgun?

Shoot, I need to see those!

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:54 am 
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Google image has shown me the errors of my ways, it is a rifle. Not a shotgun :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:18 pm 
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in Palin's defense, those are fake

edit: THE IMAGES are fake

edit2: no idea on the other stuff


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