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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Also: BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Müs wrote:


that's wrong. That's being a hypocrite. I don't deny it, or excuse it. It doesn't somehow make the fundamentals of the argument any less valid as the Constitution doesn't say "so long as you aren't being a hypocrite." and they aren't the only ones with a claim.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:45 pm 
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Its not about religion. Its about money, and who's in office.

Personally, I think its time we start taxing churches. There's a lot of revenue left on the table there, and if they want to participate in government, they need to chip in ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Not for everyone, Mus.

I'm game if you are. Let's tax Peta, Greenpeace, BSA, planned parenhood, ACORN ACLU, NAACP, GLAD, also, right?

Remember, my ideal tax solution is the fair tax. If churches had to pay consumption on their purchases, I'd be hunky dory so long as it ALL non profits.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
I'm game if you are. Let's tax Peta, Greenpeace, BSA, planned parenhood, ACORN ACLU, NAACP also, right?

Remember, my ideal tax solution is the fair tax. If churches had to pay consumption on their purchases, I'd be hunky dory so long as it ALL non profits.


Absolutely. Everyone pays if they want a voice. It would be especially delicious to tax the nutjobs as well as... um... the other nutjobs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Given the choice between tax exempt and the truth, I'll take the truth every time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:54 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:55 pm 
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There is a shocking low amount of that in our government.

Perhaps that's why only 7% of the population trusts Congress, and only 30% or so the President and USSC.

Personally, I'm shocked those numbers are *that* high.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:56 pm 
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If this means he'll be too busy to run for President again, I'm all for it.

Hey look at that we managed to find some common ground. And you were worried about this thread. /brohoof

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:42 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Yeah, the ACA ruling is particularly terrible as to make the other, more gooder rulings shine less brightly.

Even the most amazing sandwich in the world tastes like **** when there's a big, fat, turd in the middle of it.

Edit: Oofa. I didn't know about the Abortion Clinic Buffer Zone law thing. That, also is a particularly terrible decision. Hooray for allowing people to harass others!


Except for the fact that the ruling is, you know, excellent. The ruling stated that the government needed to use the least intrusive means to mandate contraception coverage, and that it had failed to do so. The same method to exempt not-for-profit charities from needing to provide contraceptive coverage (and it isn't even all contraceptives, just the abortificant ones) could have been used for for-profit corporations but wasn't, and the government was unable to articulate any good reason why.

In other words, it was a ruling against Obamacare and for smaller (albiet only in a minor way) government. But, it wasn't a ruling against the religious folks, so that must not be important.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:50 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Because **** your religion. We live in a country that allows religious freedom. Or kinda does. As long as you're Christian. Then you're free to be Christian.


We live in a country that allows freedom of religion to everyone. The problem is that the nonreligious people think that amounts to an entitlement to ahve their way in everything. You don't get to use "**** your religion" as an argument. That isn't a reason.

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Corporations aren't people. They can't have "Religious Values". Oh... wait. According to Citizens United, they are. And now, according to Hobby Lobby, they totally can have religious aspects. Because they're people now, and can go to Church. Or something. And its totally their business what sort of medical treatments their employees have chosen. Because Jesus.


Corporations were legally persons well before Citizens United under Title 1 of the United States Code. Furthermore, it is certainly their business what they're being forced to pay for, since it's you know, a tax.

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But that's ok. They're Christian. And we're a Christian Nation. And now, its totally OK for anti abortion activists to harass people who are having a procedure that's none of their goddamned business.


Whaaaa!! I guess you were in favor of Free Speech Zones at presidential rallies too?

Whether or not a fetus is a baby is a matter of public debate. They aren't allowed INSIDE the clinics, so they aren't "harassing people whose procedure is none of their business"; they're protesting a matter of public policy they disagree with. People have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

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Two totally shit-tastic decisions. And Jesus is at the core of both of them.


The only thing shit-tastic here is the idea that people need to be protected from the religion of the majority. And there's the problem. "Because Jesus" isn't a reason for the court to just de facto rule against religious freedom. These rulings are good. Every time the court stomps on the faces of the people that think the First Amendment is bludgeon to restrict beliefs they don't like, it's a good thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Müs wrote:
By disallowing contraception from their insurance plans, they are causing their employees to bear a higher burden to obtain the medications that have been legally prescribed to them. I wonder if "ED Medications" are covered... Hmm.


Except that they aren't, which you'd know if you read the decision instead of just ranting about "Because Jesus" like a fanatic. The court pointed out that employees of non-profits get these contraceptives without the employer providing them, and without paying extra themselves. They get them because the provider of insurance would rather pay for them than a baby.

That system could also be used for for-profit corps held by religious people, and would be less intrusive for them without affecting employees. The decision explains at length, so let's quite pretending that they're passing the cost to the employees.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
None of you see a problem with the fact that "religion" is a valid reason to not provide certain mandated treatments, but nothing else is? What was that about religion not getting special treatment just because it's religion?


Besides the fact that it's protected by the First Amendment?

This is why. If it wasn't, people like you, Mus, and a few others around here would use any excuse to impose government burdens on it. Because Atheism.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:58 pm 
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Müs wrote:
They're paying for their employee's medical insurance. If they're allowed to pick and choose what they cover as mandated by law, then the whole system will fall apart as other neanderthal factions will argue that their particular brand of neanderthinking should trump all.

When people won't do the right thing, government must step in to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

It would be nice if people would do right by their fellows, but in this country, its been proven time and time again that corporations can do as they wish and the government won't curtail their "rights".


Unfortunately for you, what you want is your brand of neanderthaling to trump everyone else's, and you want the government to trample on major rights (freedom of religion) in favor of a minor one (less-costly access to very specific types of birth control)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:25 am 
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Yaye! The Supreme Court once again favors giving corporations more power. Yaye!
**** the workers!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:33 am 
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I'm not the one with outdated and credulous beliefs in an imaginary being.

But that's ok, you belong to the Christian Majority so you see no problem with the USSC shoving religiosity down the rest of our throats. Because Jesus.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:47 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
None of you see a problem with the fact that "religion" is a valid reason to not provide certain mandated treatments, but nothing else is? What was that about religion not getting special treatment just because it's religion?


Besides the fact that it's protected by the First Amendment?

This is why. If it wasn't, people like you, Mus, and a few others around here would use any excuse to impose government burdens on it. Because Atheism.


I'm not an atheist. I just have issues with the concept of a "very specific God." There's a world of difference between believing in a benevolent higher power and being absolutely sure that, based on someone else's interpretation of 2000+ year old documents, that God will be very angry with you if you operate a light switch on Saturdays.

Regardless, in a previous thread you tried to convince me that religions don't get special treatment. The fact is, they do, and these kind of special privileges are disturbing. What happens when some Jehovah's witnesses that own a business file a lawsuit saying that since their religion prohibits them from having close associations with nonbelievers, they should be allowed to only hire other JWs and that it's unconstitutional for religion to be a protected class. Why is this argument different from the one that just succeeded? Now all of a sudden being Christian is a prerequisite for being hired in this country, because you know a lot of companies would jump on that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:31 am 
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It's their business. I don't agree but you don't have the right to work for a specific company.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:04 am 
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So, can we tax Church of the American Liberal and their Religious Adherence to Political Non-Issues as Indicators of American Social Health? In other words, can we tax the people who disagree with the Hobby Lobby decision because of their own willful ignorance of facts and the realities behind the decision?

If the three dissenting justices in the decision are all women and led by Ruth Bader Ginsberg, then perhaps you have to look at this issue for what it is: gender politics writ large and on an issue for which no further political progress can be made given the necessity of reproductive politics as a motivating factor. Nevermind that the Court came to the right decision: your corporation is your property and you have protected rights relative to your property. More importantly, the Court simply ruled that prescription abortifacients were not covered by the intent or wording of the Afford Care Act. Actual conception preventing birth control wasn't even part of the discussion. They literally wanted just an exemption for abortifacient birth control: that is, post conception birth control.

But you guys get all up in arms and think this is a women's rights issue, when no rights of the woman are being abridge or abrogated in any way.

As for the Corporations are People Thing -- They always have been. Collective bargaining goes both ways; free association goes both ways. Just because I'm a business owner or majority stakeholder in a company does not remove me from the ability to collectively bargain and the ability to choose who my associates are. So, just to remind you ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:08 am 
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Sam wrote:
Yaye! The Supreme Court once again favors giving corporations more power. Yaye!
**** the workers!
Too bad you didn't read the ruling ...

The Supreme Court said big corporations (the AFL-CIO and other large unions) could not require Union dues be paid by non-union employees. In other words, the big corporation cannot tax non-affiliated individuals.

Please, arm yourself with facts before you spout nonsense.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:10 am 
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Khross wrote:
They literally wanted just an exemption for abortifacient birth control: that is, post conception birth control.


Except for the barrier methods, all forms of birth control will cause an abortion some percentage of the time. The birth control pill is not 100% in preventing ovulation, but it will still prevent implantation even if ovulation and fertilization occur.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:16 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
None of you see a problem with the fact that "religion" is a valid reason to not provide certain mandated treatments, but nothing else is? What was that about religion not getting special treatment just because it's religion?



Not at all Xeq. "Not wanting to" for ANY reason is a valid reason to not provide certain treatments because the government shouldn't be involved in private compensation contracts AT ALL.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:20 am 
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Rights were upheld in the ACA related ruling and no rights were violated. You can choose to work for Hobby Lobby or not to, you can choose to partake in their healthcare plan or not, you can choose to obtain more/other healthcare outside of what Hobby Lobby offers if you want to.

The only thing that changed is the government wasn't trying to force people to fund things that go against their convictions.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:27 am 
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All the rulings advanced liberty because it advanced the amount individuals control their own lives. You may not like it but this doesn't mean it doesn't advance liberty.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:45 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Khross wrote:
They literally wanted just an exemption for abortifacient birth control: that is, post conception birth control.
Except for the barrier methods, all forms of birth control will cause an abortion some percentage of the time. The birth control pill is not 100% in preventing ovulation, but it will still prevent implantation even if ovulation and fertilization occur.
Again, normal hormonal birth controls were not part of the decision's scope or arguments. You're making a non-point. Mainstream monthly, tri-monthly, and bi-monthly hormonal regulators were not up for discussion and were not broached as part of the complaint by Hobby Lobby. That said, those drugs are not on-their-face abortifacients; abortifacient effects can happen but are statistically and medically improbable. The drugs in question are abortifacients by intent.

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