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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:17 pm 
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11289979

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The Labour Party's plan to reform the criminal justice system would mean that the accused in a rape case would have to prove consent to be found innocent -- a change it acknowledges as a monumental shift.

But Labour's justice spokesman Andrew Little said the current system is broken and in need of a major shake-up. The party favours an inquisitorial system, where a judge interviewed the alleged victim after conferring with prosecution and defence lawyers.

The policy would mean that in a rape case, if the Crown proved a sexual encounter and the identity of the defendant, it would be rape unless the defendant could prove it was consensual.

"The Crown has to prove more than just sex; the issue of consent has to be raised by the Crown, they have to prove the identity of the offender. They would have to bear that burden of proof before a switch to the defence to prove consent," Mr Little said.

He said the issue of proof would only apply where allegations of rape had been raised.

"It is pretty radical thing to say that 'all sex is rape' unless you prove consent. The reality is that in 99.9 per cent of cases, no one is being asked to prove consent."

The Law Society has a strong stance on traditional principles of the legal system, including a presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. It has argued strongly against inquisitorial systems in the past.

Mr Little said the inquisitorial system still preserved those principles because the Crown would still have to prove a number of aspects of a case before consent was explored.

"I don't accept that that is creating an offence under which the defendant is guilty until proven innocent."

He acknowledged the change would be a "huge leap".

"But when you look at the volume of sexual violence cases and the 1 per cent of cases that result in a conviction, there is something wrong with the way we are handling sexual violation cases. The circumstances may well justify doing something radically different."

In such a system, a victim would not be cross-examined by a defence lawyer.

"A defendant is entitled to have the evidence tested, but rather than face a defence counsel, which can be humiliating, a more controlled way is for the judge to conduct the examination, with counsel conferring with the judge beforehand," Mr Little said.

"That way a complainant can be assured the judge isn't there to do the best for one side or the other, but is there to get the information."

He clarified that Labour favoured the system, but its official policy is to have the Law Commission complete its report into inquisitorial systems, and then respond to that report.

Former Justice Minister Simon Power was a supporter of inquisitorial systems and asked the Law Commission to investigate. But his successor, Judith Collins, has called the system is "a step too far" and stopped the commission's work.


How long do you guys think before this makes it over here?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:21 pm 
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It will be quite a while. New Zealand is a perfect example of a country with zero responsibility, and therefore a breeding ground for unfettered liberalism.

Feminists here are already making the case for this.. but there is no case, and our legal system is much more inclined to look askance at changes to the fundamental concept of "innocent until proven guilty" than parlimentary systems are. Even the most rabidly liberal-feminist legislator would understand this would face a near-insurmountable Constitutional challenge.

This, however, is a perfect example of why out-of-control feminism is the biggest threat to liberty there is. It exploits male instincts to protect females against other males to get laws passed that are basically about making men always responsible or always guilty.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:04 pm 
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all the more reason not to screw around?

Would this apply to male victims (both hetero and sodomy)?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:13 pm 
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Article from Crazy-Land wrote:
"It is pretty radical thing to say that 'all sex is rape' unless you prove consent. The reality is that in 99.9 per cent of cases, no one is being asked to prove consent."

... riiiight. That's just because up until now, rape cases were about rape, and not an easy way to **** over any guy who dumped you with State-sponsored revenge. Any New Zealander who doesn't keep a creepy-weird-but-legally-obligatory set of recordings of his partners' consent is just doomed to eventually fall prey to a false accusation that has a trivially easy burden of "proof." Did you have sex? Yes, good. Can you provide proof of consent? No? You heard it here, your honor, my client was raped.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:29 pm 
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I think this shows the stripes of a system that despite being called constitutional and a democracy still thinks of its people as subjects and itself as the Crown

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:25 am 
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Does it apply to women as well?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:25 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Article from Crazy-Land wrote:
"It is pretty radical thing to say that 'all sex is rape' unless you prove consent. The reality is that in 99.9 per cent of cases, no one is being asked to prove consent."

... riiiight. That's just because up until now, rape cases were about rape, and not an easy way to **** over any guy who dumped you with State-sponsored revenge. Any New Zealander who doesn't keep a creepy-weird-but-legally-obligatory set of recordings of his partners' consent is just doomed to eventually fall prey to a false accusation that has a trivially easy burden of "proof." Did you have sex? Yes, good. Can you provide proof of consent? No? You heard it here, your honor, my client was raped.


I can imagine a situation where a creepy guy with creepy contract holds it up as proof only to be told it was signed under duress.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Does it apply to women as well?


Take a guess. While you're at it, try to imagine the implications for same-sex sexual assaults, too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Well, if this is any indication, they're already doing this in California.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:28 pm 
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Like I said, creepy filing cabinet full of sex tapes. Congratulations, feminism.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:00 pm 
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The law is about to become a guessing game for young men on California campuses. If you think that's an exaggeration, read what the co-author of the bill in the Assembly, Assemblywoman Bonnie Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, said when she was asked how an innocent person is supposed to prove consent: “Your guess is as good as mine. I think it’s a legal issue. Like any legal issue, that goes to court.”


/shrug I thought it was just Republicans that wanted unfettered access to your bedrooms

also the bill appears to only apply to being thrown out of college, not actual criminal proceedings, where Constitutional protections still apply.

Still a /facepalm-er though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:42 am 
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The real effect of this bill is that it is essentially illegal for a man in New Zealand to have sex with a woman, and consent has become merely an affirmative defense.

The way an affirmative defense works is that if a defendant can prove the affirmative defense, it excuses them from the conduct that would otherwise have been criminal. That's what "the man must prove consent" essentially does.

In other words, the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or whatever the prosecutorial burden is in New Zealand is now limited simply to proving sex happened in the first place. One the prosecutor has proven that, he has proven that the man has committed a crime. Consent has the effect of affirmative defense - excusing the defendant for an otherwise illegal act.

In a way, this could call attention to just how extreme feminism is, and possibly finally get it's dominance of the narrative between genders under control. While this might seem like a good idea in the abstract to a lot of feminist-light and other more egalitarian women who think men are getting away with rape left and right simply because feminists have said so over and over, once they see men they personally know getting convicted for obvious bullshit it's likely to be a massive wakeup call.

Unfortunately, it will no doubt be far too late for the unfortunate men in question.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:50 am 
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This is utterly insane. How on earth would one ever prove consent without a recording? It would just be a case of one partner's word against the other...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:17 am 
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The first person in New Zealand to take advantage of this should be a man, just to show them how ridiculous it is.

"An erection is not consent!"

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:02 am 
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Actually, modern feminism does want to prevent young men from having sex on college campuses. That is, in fact, the goal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:41 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Actually, modern feminism does want to prevent young men from having sex on college campuses. That is, in fact, the goal.


It's worse than that. They want young women to have the ability to retroactively decide that sex was rape, for any reason they want.

Feminism wants essentially a reverse-Taliban set of sexual mores where male sexuality is entirely subject to the sensibilities of women, and female sexuality is a bizarre combination of liberated ability to do whatever one wants in private, with a prudish public show of being offended at any male who shows signs of attraction without having been given leave. remember, merely being attracted to a woman with her permission is "being a creep" and "treating her as a sex object".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:17 am 
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Serienya wrote:
This is utterly insane. How on earth would one ever prove consent without a recording? It would just be a case of one partner's word against the other...


Exactly. That's part of what makes this so insidious.

Rape is different from most other serious crimes in that consent is a real issue. It's pretty rare that in cases of robbery, burglary, assault, or murder (to name a few) that someone could seriously claim that it wasn't a crime because the victim consented. You don't ususally see cases where someone's house was broken into and there's any real question as to the lack of permission; it's more a question of whether the accused did it.

In rape cases, most of the time the identity of the rapist is not the issue (although it can be, but it's certainly not the most common scenario); either everyone agrees that the two people had sex, or DNA and other evidence can pretty clearly establish that sex was had, and that it was with the person in question.

What that means is that the prosecution needs to establish not just that sex was had, but that force, coercion, or some other element that establishes rape must be proven. If it's just "his world against hers", then that's reasonable doubt. This is the standard in any criminal case - if it's the word of one person against another, then the defendant should always win.

This is the source of the claim that "if you report a rape, the authorities won't believe you". No, they won't, because they are not allowed to just believe you. They have to investigate and establish the truth of your claim and convince a jury of it beyond a reasonable doubt.

With this change, now "his word against hers" means that the accuser wins by default, as long as the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the two people in question had sex with each other. Sex has just been criminalized, and proving consent is merely an affirmative defense.

At best, if this law is applied to everyone, it merely creates an absurd situation where the best defense when accused of rape is simply to make a counteraccusation against your accuser. At worst, this law is essentially Jim Crow for heterosexual males, whose only defense is to make a countercomplaint that almost certainly won't be taken seriously.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:20 pm 
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This should provide an excuse to make a sex tape. "Honey, I need this on tape for legal purposes."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Talya wrote:
This should provide an excuse to make a sex tape. "Honey, I need this on tape for legal purposes."

Yup, like I was saying. So we've gone and facilitated revenge porn in this newfangled internet age in the name of women's rights. Great.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:53 pm 
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Nothing gets a woman hotter than by you busting out your phone and making her state her name, date, sobriety, and to clearly state she is consenting to sexual relations. And nothing brings her closer than by asking her to do it again after, stating it was still consensual.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:35 am 
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Numbuk wrote:
Nothing gets a woman hotter than by you busting out your phone and making her state her name, date, sobriety, and to clearly state she is consenting to sexual relations. And nothing brings her closer than by asking her to do it again after, stating it was still consensual.

Bah. That's not even good enough. You need to do that multiple times, to ensure that each escalation is also still consentual.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Numbuk wrote:
Nothing gets a woman hotter than by you busting out your phone and making her state her name, date, sobriety, and to clearly state she is consenting to sexual relations. And nothing brings her closer than by asking her to do it again after, stating it was still consensual.

Bah. That's not even good enough. You need to do that multiple times, to ensure that each escalation is also still consentual.


And remember, since women are oppressed and have no power they can't give meaningful consent anyhow! If they think they can, they've obviously been brainwashed by the Patriarchy (tm).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:17 pm 
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Cases like this (despite not being in New Zealand) demonstrate why a low conviction rate with rape is a good thing. Rape is a highly emotionalized crime to everyone, not just the victim. Rape accusations should be looked at with a great deal of suspicion because of the rare situation where otherwise consensual activity can become criminal based on the subjective outlook of one party, and they can make that outlook be whatever they want after the fact.

It's particularly notable that (in this country, at least) there's a complaint (not inaccurate) that minority defendants accused of raping white women are very likely to be wrongly convicted as evidence that the 'justice system is racist', yet when rape comes up without reference to race, all of a sudden rape accusations are 'hardly ever false' according to feminists.

In point of fact, the problem with minority men being convicted of rape is symptomatic of their poorer economic conditions, just like all the other areas where they supposedly are the victims of 'racism' - they are likely to have little money, and therefore are far more likely to be stuck with crappy public defenders and unable to make bail to assist in their own defense.

But, when we don't refer to race, the image of the rapist that's being crusaded against is a white male, mainly but not always a college-age kid who cares only about getting women into bed regardless of their feelings on the matter.

The left that pushes this narrative of uncontrolled 'rape culture' and a mountain of obstructions to justice for rape victims' is thus faced with this contradiction wherein rape convictions are a major contributor to their other favorite boogeyman of racism- which is why you so often see white male inserted in discussions of these issues. Tammy Bruce talks about this in one of her books from when she was the head of the L.A. NOW chapter during OJ Simpson's first trial. That was DV, not rape, but the result was the same- she had the national NOW head freaking out at her for calling attention to domestic violence by using this case because Simpson was a black man and a rift in solidarity between 'oppressed' groups wasn't acceptable. She goes on to discuss how this helped push her departure from NOW, and her departure from the left in general.

Note also that a great deal of minority defendants are exonerated later based on DNA evidence - as in, it was later established that they did not have sex with the victim in the first place. This is devastating to the narrative that rape accusations are almost always true and that rape cases are 'hard to prosecute'. They might be hard to prosecute with accuracy, but it seems that in point of fact defendants are being convicted without the prosecution even proving that sex occurred. How they are able to do this is unknown, but it seems that of the victim is pretty, and the defendant looks like a criminal, or worse is a criminal in other areas (i.e. has a criminal record) then juries are all too willing to convict whoever is put in front of them.

It also makes one wonder about the accusers. How exactly are they accusing men of rape with whom they never had sex at all? Probably a variety of reasons, but in at least some cases they most likely will simply take the first man presented to them as a suspect, and say "yeah, that's him", either simply out of desire to see someone convicted for what was done to them, or simply to acquire the status of 'rape victim' without actually being raped first - and make no mistake, while almost no one wants to be raped, quite a few want access to the privileges of victimization. Rape victims are not stigmatized in this country; they're lauded, and they're valuable tools for shutting down reasoned discussion with a hose of emotional trauma.

Laws like this are a result of 2 things - the need of the left, which has become over the last 40 years completely dependent on victim politics for political capital to ensure an endless supply of victims, and the ineffectiveness and clumsiness of the right in trying to deal with this, mainly by trying not to offend parts of the left that are very good at outraged screaming and demanding resignations, firings, and pulling fire alarms at campus events. This law is the end result of a near-totally fictitious conventional wisdom about rape in every aspect.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:42 pm 
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you forgot the part where all of your expert analysis can be dismissed because you are male :P

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