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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Well it's Al Jazeera, so they're doing their part to support the War on Terror.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:05 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
This thread makes me wonder what is the proper response of government to the wanton destruction of innocent third party's homes and livelihoods by a mass of hoodlums? One Bullet Barney doesn't cut it.

Rori, in further response to your question, I highly recommend this article by Radley Balko at the Washington Post. I tried to excerpt it, but it's too hard to pick highlights as it should really be read in full.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Here's another important point about how the culture of police departments is both established and reflected in the aspects of the job they emphasize in their recruitment videos:



Note the aspects of policing the video emphasizes: Shooting stuff. K-9 enforcement. Nabbing the bad guys. The SWAT team. This is the first step in the process.

(There’s also the separate but related question of why Hobbs — a town of 35,000 people — needs a SWAT team in the first place. As the Watchdog reports, the SWAT team has its own page on the Hobbs department Web site, complete with a video of SWAT cops shooting and destroying things, set to heavy metal music. The statement in the video that “The rules of engagement of SWAT are simple: Defeat the enemy . . . any way you can” is also troubling. The mission of a SWAT team ought to be to resolve volatile situations without force and violence whenever possible.)

Note, too, what’s missing from the recruiting video: Public service. Cops walking beats. Community policing. Helping people.

Now ask yourself: What sort of person would be attracted to a career in law enforcement based on the images and activities depicted in that video? And is that the sort of person you’d want wearing a badge and carrying a gun in your neighborhood?

The video isn’t disturbing only because of the type of police officer it’s likely to attract. It also suggests that the leadership in the Hobbs police department believes that these are the aspects of police work most worth touting — that this is the face they want to project to the community.

Hobbs isn’t alone in this. It’s a trend in policing that I’ve covered for a few years and part of a general move toward more aggressive, militarized police forces. There are many other examples. [Click through to article for additional videos - RD]

...You get the idea. But they aren’t all bad....Here’s one from Decatur, Ala.:



Admittedly, the latter video is cringeworthy in a dorky way, but the difference in emphasis is obvious. Conor Friedersdorf at The Atlantic comments on the comparison here:

Conor Friedersdorf wrote:
The officers in that latter video will strike most people in this article as the ones they'd want policing their neighborhood. But their type is not venerated in the movies or television shows that we watch. Neither is it lauded in most American police departments. There are training methods, cultural conceits, and a martial culture that America uses to surround those we send abroad to kill declared enemies. And when police departments and officers adopted that same culture to prepare and surround those meant to protect and serve on America's streets, we thought it was cool.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:12 am 
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Is anyone besides me disgusted by the fact that people have already chosen sides and have made up their minds absolutely on who is at fault?

How about stepping back and waiting to find out the details? People see a dead young black male in the street shot by a cop and automatically he was a good boy who didn't deserve it? It was racism because "Black teen shot by white cop"?

Because of this, the idiot masses of the town have taken to looting and destroying their own community for Justice for Brown?

Me, I haven't heard anything either way that convinces me of either side's story.

I can stand the activism on what could only be assumptions of the situation that occurred. People need to look at these situations with a little common sense and logic before damning one side or the other and never letting their perceptions change no matter what facts come out.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:04 am 
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Foamy wrote:
Is anyone besides me disgusted by the fact that people have already chosen sides and have made up their minds absolutely on who is at fault?

How about stepping back and waiting to find out the details? People see a dead young black male in the street shot by a cop and automatically he was a good boy who didn't deserve it? It was racism because "Black teen shot by white cop"?

Because of this, the idiot masses of the town have taken to looting and destroying their own community for Justice for Brown?

Me, I haven't heard anything either way that convinces me of either side's story.

I can stand the activism on what could only be assumptions of the situation that occurred. People need to look at these situations with a little common sense and logic before damning one side or the other and never letting their perceptions change no matter what facts come out.

Do please justify these actions taken by the police, then.

Also.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:15 am 
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By the way, where are all of the Tea Party folks who protest government overreach with guns and ****? Shouldn't they be there with guns instead of protesting Chipotle and Starbucks? Does Missouri just not have them?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:20 am 
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Farsky:

A bad, over the top, reaction to an asinine response to a terrible occurance.

Community = shouldn't have reacted with such asinine violence to what they know nothing about other that rumors and what they probably heard through the grapevine. They've crucified the cop and canonized the victim already in their minds and there would be no change of their minds in the face of even facts.

Police = shouldn't have gone all riot gear and tear gas on anyone and everyone just because of how tense the situation has become.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:58 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Do please justify these actions taken by the police, then.


The actions you linked there do not have any bearing on the original incident. I've heard some people claim that the linked incidents "clearly show" a culture of blah blah blah, therefore the original officer must be guilty. Obviously, that's nonsense.

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By the way, where are all of the Tea Party folks who protest government overreach with guns and ****? Shouldn't they be there with guns instead of protesting Chipotle and Starbucks? Does Missouri just not have them?


Interesting question. First, be careful not to fall into the trap of "since these people are NOT doing something, they must be racists". I am not actively protesting the killing of whales - this does not mean I support the killing of whales.

As to why they are not protesting, there could be several reasons. First, Tea Party folks tend to be about limited government, not lawlessness. They are pro-property rights, and may respond a little more coldly when the overreach relates to a situation where folks are burning buildings, looting, etc.

Second, Tea Party protests, from what I have seen, have been lawful. Tea Party folks may not want to throw in with the lawlessness.

Third, regarding Tea Party protests "with guns and ****" - if I am correct, you are referring to responsible, legal, gun owners. No responsible gun owner is going to take their gun into a riot unless they are trying to defend people and property - not protest.

Fourth, would you want to be a white guy in the middle of that protest right now?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:45 am 
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Foamy:
"Unacceptable" is the correct term. You move past "reaction" when these contemptible "officers" started tear gassing news crews and demanding (now with death threats!) that reporters cease showing their offenses to the world. Jesus Christ, this is how they act when they know the world is watching.

No one (here, at least, or anywhere I've seen) is claiming the looting or riots are in any way justified. Period. They're also not to be conflated with the peaceful protests and, once again, news coverage.

Arathain:
First point: I mention nor intend nothing of racism. I'm just curious why people who hold "property rights" in such high regard that they protest "overreach" by private companies who deny open-carry firearms on their property seem uninterested in literally jackbooted paramilitary government officials according American citizens the same treatment as terrorists.

Fourth point: I actually think that some whites showing solidarity with the protestors (not the looters/rioters, who I feel are being conflated here and in other outlets) would very much decrease the racial tension, or at least (cynically) serve to make more people care when a pretty white girl gets hit in the face with tear gas or sent to the hospital from being shot by an officer.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:11 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Foamy:
"Unacceptable" is the correct term. You move past "reaction" when these contemptible "officers" started tear gassing news crews and demanding (now with death threats!) that reporters cease showing their offenses to the world. Jesus Christ, this is how they act when they know the world is watching.


Jesus.

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Arathain:
First point: I mention nor intend nothing of racism. I'm just curious why people who hold "property rights" in such high regard that they protest "overreach" by private companies who deny open-carry firearms on their property seem uninterested in literally jackbooted paramilitary government officials according American citizens the same treatment as terrorists.


How do you know they are uninterested? Only because they aren't protesting. You're interested - are you protesting? All I'm saying is don't mistake lack of action as disinterest, or worse, hypocrisy.

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Fourth point: I actually think that some whites showing solidarity with the protestors (not the looters/rioters, who I feel are being conflated here and in other outlets) would very much decrease the racial tension, or at least (cynically) serve to make more people care when a pretty white girl gets hit in the face with tear gas or sent to the hospital from being shot by an officer gets raped and murdered during street protests.


Fixed. Would you take your daughter there?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Quote:
Arathain:
First point: I mention nor intend nothing of racism. I'm just curious why people who hold "property rights" in such high regard that they protest "overreach" by private companies who deny open-carry firearms on their property seem uninterested in literally jackbooted paramilitary government officials according American citizens the same treatment as terrorists.


How do you know they are uninterested? Only because they aren't protesting. You're interested - are you protesting? All I'm saying is don't mistake lack of action as disinterest, or worse, hypocrisy.

I don't. Hence, "seem." I'm honestly curious if they are or not, and if not, why. Just wondering aloud; I don't know of any MO residents here who would fit the bill to ask specifically.

Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Quote:
Fourth point: I actually think that some whites showing solidarity with the protestors (not the looters/rioters, who I feel are being conflated here and in other outlets) would very much decrease the racial tension, or at least (cynically) serve to make more people care when a pretty white girl gets hit in the face with tear gas or sent to the hospital from being shot by an officer gets raped and murdered during street protests.


Fixed. Would you take your daughter there?

Please show where you "fixed" my statement...I've seen no evidence of anyone getting raped and/or murdered (aside from possibly Michael Brown).

Aside from not having a daughter, why would I take her there? If she's an adult who wished to go, she would go. If she's young enough to need my permission, that's obvious: I wouldn't take a child to a protest, period.

Weren't you cautioning against conflation and misrepresentation?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Ferg police trying to forcibly shut down a live CNN broadcast

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:46 pm 
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https://storify.com/miniver/mike-brown- ... -shaunking


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:19 pm 
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'Sky, there are all kinds of people interested in/commenting on, and up in arms about Ferguson, from regular ol' conservatives, to all stripes of libertarians, and tea partiers.


I think the common sentiment is:
Quote:
While law and order must be restored, this seems way out of place for today's police departments to be treating ordinary citizens like this.


It just doesn't fit the narrative that has been foisted upon an eager public: "Conservatives/libertarians/Tea Partiers are all racist!"
So you're not going to have it jammed down your throat that they are (still) the one's leading the charge against a government that is too pervasive and powerful, like you would if there was an angle to further the "RACISS!" narrative.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Is anyone besides me disgusted by the fact that people have already chosen sides and have made up their minds absolutely on who is at fault?

How about stepping back and waiting to find out the details? People see a dead young black male in the street shot by a cop and automatically he was a good boy who didn't deserve it? It was racism because "Black teen shot by white cop"?

Because of this, the idiot masses of the town have taken to looting and destroying their own community for Justice for Brown?

Me, I haven't heard anything either way that convinces me of either side's story.

I can stand the activism on what could only be assumptions of the situation that occurred. People need to look at these situations with a little common sense and logic before damning one side or the other and never letting their perceptions change no matter what facts come out.


Foamy,

Yes it bothers me too.
It doesn't help the situation that the only "account" of the incident that was getting any airplay was made by his accomplice (which is taken to be truthful, of course), or that the photo released was of him "in happier times" at an arcade - looking all cute and chubby (rather than the much more common photos of him flashing gang signs and the middle finger).

Kind of reminds me of another incident involving a black teenager shot by a non-black person. Makes me wonder what purpose the media could have in presenting these incidents in the manner they do...

The problem is going to be that this shooting is going to be a justifiable (in my opinion) case of a thug charging a cop and getting shot in the process, as the accounts of the incident NOT getting airplay, as well as the autopsy seem to indicate. Then, there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about cover-ups and such. That, when taken together with the looting/rioting, will cause the over-arching concept that militarized police tactics and the effect they have on our liberties, rights and way of life to be lost or ridiculed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:06 pm 
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Aside from the fact that the police aren't bein militarized, and it isn't having any effect on our liberties or way of life. Nonexistant phenomenon tend not to, and even if it were bappening it still wouldn't be afcecting us.

You can tell it isnt happening because now the National Guard is going there, which actually is the military. If the police were "militarized" that would be superfluous.

camo pants!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:53 pm 
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I blame John Stewart.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:16 am 
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This is why I believe all cities everywhere should adopt Rialto, CA's stance: Police officers must wear cameras. Police brutality dropped by 60%, and complaints against the department dropped by 88%.

It's a beautiful and wonderful solution for *BOTH* parties involved. It keeps the truth in the spotlight. It keeps an overzealous policeman in check. It proves interactions with a citizen false who is wrongly claiming brutality.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:38 am 
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Agreed on both counts, Numbuk.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:45 am 
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Only if it's attached to their

camo pants!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Only if it's attached to their

camo pants!!!!

No, no. It clearly should be attached to their camo tactical vest!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Numbuk wrote:
This is why I believe all cities everywhere should adopt Rialto, CA's stance: Police officers must wear cameras. Police brutality dropped by 60%, and complaints against the department dropped by 88%.

It's a beautiful and wonderful solution for *BOTH* parties involved. It keeps the truth in the spotlight. It keeps an overzealous policeman in check. It proves interactions with a citizen false who is wrongly claiming brutality.


I'm kinda down with this. We'd know right now what happened.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Numbuk wrote:
This is why I believe all cities everywhere should adopt Rialto, CA's stance: Police officers must wear cameras. Police brutality dropped by 60%, and complaints against the department dropped by 88%.

It's a beautiful and wonderful solution for *BOTH* parties involved. It keeps the truth in the spotlight. It keeps an overzealous policeman in check. It proves interactions with a citizen false who is wrongly claiming brutality.


I'm kinda down with this. We'd know right now what happened.


In Ferguson we wouldn't. The PD would have withheld the video until the last possible moment. And blamed the victim.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Ferguson police: We can’t release the autopsy report because that might bias future juries.

Ferguson police: *releases footage of Brown stealing from a store and having a physical confrontation with an employee*

Ferguson police: This event has absolutely nothing to do with why Brown was killed. It’s not important at all. It obviously isn’t meant as bias either.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:24 pm 
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A lot has been made of the camouflage pants; quite a lot, in point of fact. As such, I must ask the resident expert:

What possible tactical, strategic, material, or operational advantage does jungle patterned camouflage provide in an urban combat situation?

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