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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:32 am 
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Let's look at the historical context... Islam was founded by a great conquerer. Christianity was founded by a non-violent nice guy.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:48 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
But the effect of all these "Remember 9/11/01" memes and newcasts (and some would argue, the intent) is to focus public anger on the culprit,


That has diminished greatly. I haven't seen any of that this year, though I'm sure it still exists.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:48 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Wow, I'm saddened.

Then again, I guess I should have expected what those specific respondents to the OP would have said, but I guess I'm out of touch with the "Blame America Firsters" since I escaped The People's Republic of Kalifornia, and moved back to the United States of America.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:59 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
And if you think the Twin Towers are a bigger deal than the nation's capital being occupied by an invading army, you're nuts.


The only lasting impact from the burning of Washington was the realization that a standing army is needed. This would have occurred anyway. DC was burned in retaliation for the burning of Toronto, by an organized army we were at war with. 9/11 on the other hand, resulted in the realization that our public infrastructure could be used against us, but relatively few rogue individuals and causing great damage. They were able to take out many Americans, two economic centers, and hit our military command center. All the brits were able to do was burn some buildings. 9/11 resulted in 2 wars and changed the aviation industry, as well as many other facets of our economy.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:08 am 
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Yeah all our reactions to 9/11 have been to the detriment of the people.

The burning of the Whitehouse gave us a good story about Dolly Madison at least.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:21 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Yeah all our reactions to 9/11 have been to the detriment of the people.


That's a very bold and easily dismissible statement.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:11 pm 
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It's not easily dismissed, nor is it particularly bold.

We created another Federal Law Enforcement Agency, which amusingly does not answer to the Department of Justice.

We created another massive Federal bureaucracy that costs billions upon billions of dollars to run without providing material benefit to the United States or its people.

We created a whole slew of laws that give the government more say over what you can and cannot do with your own money.

We leveraged another generation into debt by prosecuting two occupations with no material benefit to the United States.

We've antagonized Israel, Russia, and China.

What's to the benefit of the people, Arathain?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It's not easily dismissed, nor is it particularly bold.

We created another Federal Law Enforcement Agency, which amusingly does not answer to the Department of Justice.

We created another massive Federal bureaucracy that costs billions upon billions of dollars to run without providing material benefit to the United States or its people.

We created a whole slew of laws that give the government more say over what you can and cannot do with your own money.

We leveraged another generation into debt by prosecuting two occupations with no material benefit to the United States.

We've antagonized Israel, Russia, and China.

What's to the benefit of the people, Arathain?


OBL is dead. That is a benefit to the people.

KSM is behind bars.

We disposed of aging stockpiles of munitions.

And lots of others, depending on one's views on the subject. You quoted a few examples. Unless you're ready to list all our reactions to 9/11 and justify why they are to the detriment of the people, it's a bold statement. And since I'm comfortable in the assumption that Elmo is not even aware of all the reactions to 9/11, I can easily dismiss the statement.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:47 pm 
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We created an agency who's sole purpose is to make people miserable at airports.

**** the TSA. Useless groping ****.

Also, if the US didn't execute Richard Reid, they **** well should have.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Müs wrote:
We created an agency who's sole purpose is to make people miserable at airports.

**** the TSA. Useless groping ****.

Also, if the US didn't execute Richard Reid, they **** well should have.


Yes, clearly someone just said "let's make this agency just to annoy people". :roll: The TSA is inefficient and poorly run, but a great deal of that is due to the requirements imposed on them by victim politics, and if nothing else they at least make it harder by forcing anyone planning an attack to defeat their methods.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:11 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
We created an agency who's sole purpose is to make people miserable at airports.

**** the TSA. Useless groping ****.

Also, if the US didn't execute Richard Reid, they **** well should have.


Yes, clearly someone just said "let's make this agency just to annoy people". :roll: The TSA is inefficient and poorly run, but a great deal of that is due to the requirements imposed on them by victim politics, and if nothing else they at least make it harder by forcing anyone planning an attack to defeat their methods.


I had to fly this weekend. The TSA is a blight on humanity.

Because of them, I conclude that the Terrorists have won.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:40 pm 
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If the TSA didn't exist the airlines would do the same thing themselves. They would go out of business otherwise. It sucks, but the illusion of safety is very important and a huge number of people really do believe that the more they get hassled, the better the security must be.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:21 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
We created an agency who's sole purpose is to make people miserable at airports.

**** the TSA. Useless groping ****.

Also, if the US didn't execute Richard Reid, they **** well should have.


Yes, clearly someone just said "let's make this agency just to annoy people". :roll: The TSA is inefficient and poorly run, but a great deal of that is due to the requirements imposed on them by victim politics, and if nothing else they at least make it harder by forcing anyone planning an attack to defeat their methods.


I had to fly this weekend. The TSA is a blight on humanity.

Because of them, I conclude that the Terrorists have won.

Yes clearly the goal of the terrorists was to inconvenience you.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:02 am 
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Sarcasm aside, terrorists aim to scare a group of people intro thinking they could always be around the corner, waiting to strike. They have done that, America is terrified.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:11 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Sarcasm aside, terrorists aim to scare a group of people intro thinking they could always be around the corner, waiting to strike. They have done that, America is terrified.


America was terrified. Not really anymore. And the goal of terrorists is to scare people into submission. This did not work well. Americans are mean when they are scared.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:16 am 
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Yeah it did. We submit to our balls being touched when we fly. We submit to being spied on by our own government when we communicate electronically. We submit to a host of utter bullshit all because we are collectively afraid.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:17 am 
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we were downtown baltimore this weekend for the celebration, and ran into a 9/11 monument. It's a marble slab with some twisted beams from NY. Anyway, I talked to my 6 year old about it. It's interesting what he just accepts and what he questions. Everyone at the time was all about "why?" Kids don't question that there are good guys and bad guys - that's accepted.

Anyway, I explained what happened and he had thoughts, but the most interesting were that it was good that there are firefighters to save people, but that they died makes him want to cry. Also, he's very glad it happened before he was born and is over now. :/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:18 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Yeah it did. We submit to our balls being touched when we fly. We submit to being spied on by our own government when we communicate electronically. We submit to a host of utter bullshit all because we are collectively afraid.


None of which was the goal of any terrorist I've ever met. I don't know many people that would kill themselves to try to make you get your balls touched.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:32 am 
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My point is that America is still terrified.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:35 am 
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Despite the relatively small physical loss in lives and property, 9/11 was a phenomenally successful act of terrorism, because it fundamentally changed the way western society looked at terrorism and security. We're still feeling the aftershocks of this every time we travel by air, or cross a border. As a Canadian, the world's longest "unguarded" border has no more open roads without border guard stations, and the open border between Lake Superior and the Rocky Mountains is now constantly patrolled by drones. Americans and Canadians used to be able to cross into each other's countries using only a birth certificate, now we need passports to cross, and the border guard are increasingly unfriendly - treating everybody like criminals right from the get go.

If you have ever had the privilege of speaking with someone old enough to remember WW1 (those people are almost gone from the world now), every single one of them called it the war that changed the world. Everything seemed to change after WW1, and the world was never the same again afterward. Those that lived through WW2 still say the same. 9/11 may pale in comparison to those events, and yet it says something about how successful an act of terrorism it was that it changed the world just as much. Until our generation that lived through it dies, 9/11 will remain significant. From my son's generation forward (he was born in 2002), 9/11 will become a minor event in history, but for the rest of us, it will forever remain relevant.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:07 am 
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Talya wrote:
Despite the relatively small physical loss in lives and property, 9/11 was a phenomenally successful act of terrorism, because it fundamentally changed the way western society looked at terrorism and security. We're still feeling the aftershocks of this every time we travel by air, or cross a border. As a Canadian, the world's longest "unguarded" border has no more open roads without border guard stations, and the open border between Lake Superior and the Rocky Mountains is now constantly patrolled by drones. Americans and Canadians used to be able to cross into each other's countries using only a birth certificate, now we need passports to cross, and the border guard are increasingly unfriendly - treating everybody like criminals right from the get go.

If you have ever had the privilege of speaking with someone old enough to remember WW1 (those people are almost gone from the world now), every single one of them called it the war that changed the world. Everything seemed to change after WW1, and the world was never the same again afterward. Those that lived through WW2 still say the same. 9/11 may pale in comparison to those events, and yet it says something about how successful an act of terrorism it was that it changed the world just as much. Until our generation that lived through it dies, 9/11 will remain significant. From my son's generation forward (he was born in 2002), 9/11 will become a minor event in history, but for the rest of us, it will forever remain relevant.


An act cannot be considered successful unless it meets intended goals. None of the consequences you mention further any strategic goal of Al Qaeda's. The only items that do are the lives lost and economic damage, which you refer to as "relatively small".


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:32 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Talya wrote:
Despite the relatively small physical loss in lives and property, 9/11 was a phenomenally successful act of terrorism, because it fundamentally changed the way western society looked at terrorism and security. We're still feeling the aftershocks of this every time we travel by air, or cross a border. As a Canadian, the world's longest "unguarded" border has no more open roads without border guard stations, and the open border between Lake Superior and the Rocky Mountains is now constantly patrolled by drones. Americans and Canadians used to be able to cross into each other's countries using only a birth certificate, now we need passports to cross, and the border guard are increasingly unfriendly - treating everybody like criminals right from the get go.

If you have ever had the privilege of speaking with someone old enough to remember WW1 (those people are almost gone from the world now), every single one of them called it the war that changed the world. Everything seemed to change after WW1, and the world was never the same again afterward. Those that lived through WW2 still say the same. 9/11 may pale in comparison to those events, and yet it says something about how successful an act of terrorism it was that it changed the world just as much. Until our generation that lived through it dies, 9/11 will remain significant. From my son's generation forward (he was born in 2002), 9/11 will become a minor event in history, but for the rest of us, it will forever remain relevant.


An act cannot be considered successful unless it meets intended goals. None of the consequences you mention further any strategic goal of Al Qaeda's. The only items that do are the lives lost and economic damage, which you refer to as "relatively small".



The immediate goal of terrorism is to inspire fear - that's it. Based on our reaction, it was phenomenally successful. Al Qaeda may have underestimated how far we we were willing to respond, but that doesn't make their opening salvo any less successful, it just meant they lost the war.

However, I honestly do believe that the eventual result will show that the economic cost was far greater than the mere loss of property and lives at 9/11. Our response - both in terms of internal security and external reaction, came at a cost of tens of trillions of dollars, and eventually, probably hundreds of trillions - without even counting the losses suffered by companies and individuals due to the inconveniences of security measures that are ultimately ineffectual. (And yes, inconveniences always cost money.) The economies of the western world are a house of cards, waiting to collapse - and we've undermined them with our spending. We were going in that direction anyway, but the resources spent due to 9/11 could mean that in a few hundred years, when historians are looking back at the fall of the "American Empire," 9/11 might be seen as the tipping point of where it started. More importantly, 9/11 signalled an end to western ideologies of individual freedom and independance. We've become a bunch of security-focused countries. Prioritizing Security vs. prioritizing Freedom are completely incompatible ideologies. Terrorism has convinced us that it's okay to give up a few personal freedoms for the illusion of safety and security; Big Brother is necessary to protect us. We've given government the authority to rule us once more, where previously we had taken that away, instead having government serve us. This is an ideological goal of fundamentalist islamic extremism, as it is a compatible ideology with their own.

This terrifies me more than planes flying into buildings, because ultimately, I fear the fictional villain of the Avengers movie may prove right:

"Kneel! Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It is the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel."

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:11 pm 
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Talya wrote:
However, I honestly do believe that the eventual result will show that the economic cost was far greater than the mere loss of property and lives at 9/11. Our response - both in terms of internal security and external reaction, came at a cost of tens of trillions of dollars, and eventually, probably hundreds of trillions - without even counting the losses suffered by companies and individuals due to the inconveniences of security measures that are ultimately ineffectual. (And yes, inconveniences always cost money.) The economies of the western world are a house of cards, waiting to collapse - and we've undermined them with our spending. We were going in that direction anyway, but the resources spent due to 9/11 could mean that in a few hundred years, when historians are looking back at the fall of the "American Empire," 9/11 might be seen as the tipping point of where it started. More importantly, 9/11 signalled an end to western ideologies of individual freedom and independance. We've become a bunch of security-focused countries. Prioritizing Security vs. prioritizing Freedom are completely incompatible ideologies. Terrorism has convinced us that it's okay to give up a few personal freedoms for the illusion of safety and security; Big Brother is necessary to protect us. We've given government the authority to rule us once more, where previously we had taken that away, instead having government serve us. This is an ideological goal of fundamentalist islamic extremism, as it is a compatible ideology with their own.


We're not on the verge of any kind of collapse, and the security consciousness is really an inconvenience at most, with a few spectacular **** here and there. This is all pretty melodramatic. Far too much of our attitude on this stuff is informed by fears from fictional works.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:20 pm 
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Hunter S. Thompson wrote:
The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives.
It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad, fueled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines and no identifiable enemy.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1250751

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:09 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Hunter S. Thompson wrote:
The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives.
It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad, fueled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines and no identifiable enemy.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1250751


And no amount of purple prose is going to make that true.

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