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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
That's quaint, Montegue. You still think that government cares about your well being.


And that is a fundamental misunderstanding of how I view government. Government cannot care about anything. It has no mind, no emotions, no body and no heart. Government is a tool, nothing more. It is not an entity, it has no life of it's own, it is simply a means by which we help to ensure our mutual survival. It's an adaptation.

Like any tool, it can be harmful or helpful. I believe the democratic process (which should not be misunderstood as to believe an absolute democracy), when untainted by undue corporate influence, is the best means by which to regulate that tool and put it to best use (which is not to say government is best for everything. It's not. It does, however, have it's uses. It must also be well regulated).

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:17 pm 
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It's only karma that you are "misunderstood". Look at your own signature. That's a pathetic strawmen you use as a lens through which to view everyone on this board.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:48 pm 
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You can certainly have that opinion, but you're simply incorrect. Far be it from me to endeavor to dispel you of your ill-conceived notions, however.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:45 pm 
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And the Dem's pile on DHS as well as the Republicans.... Bi Partisanship has been achieved!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01 ... itics%2529

[quote][/quote]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:48 pm 
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And of course it takes them 4 days to respond to the attack but only a few hours to re-attack Dick Chenney. It is really a bit sad how a former vice president puts their panties in a bunch.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 87322.html


The funniest part is that they think old Dick is too easy on the terrorists vs the administration. I think a nice summation of that is.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/ ... U0NmE5ZjM=

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Ah Yes, That Dainty, Sensitive, Dovish Dick Cheney We've Heard So Much About

Dan Pfeiffer, White House Communications Director, today:

I think we all agree that there should be honest debate about these issues, but it is telling that Vice President Cheney and others seem to be more focused on criticizing the Administration than condemning the attackers.

Just to clarify, this is the same former vice president who we were told was Darth Vader, ruthless and cruel, obsessed with terrorism, draconian and lacking in perspective, stopping at nothing to find anyone who could be even remotely connected to al-Qaeda and using excruciatingly painful forms of interrogation that leave decent souls traumatized and Jack Bauer wincing.

And now we're supposed to believe he's insufficiently interested in condemning the attackers? He's beyond condemning him; he wants to waterboard him until his lungs qualify for a federal wetlands status.

Look, guys, I realize you're on the defensive, but pick a line of attack and stick with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:14 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Talya wrote:
So is airport security getting itself back in shape? (not as in "providing good security", but as in "not seriously delaying/cancelling half the flights in the USA anymore"?)

Well, they were, but this dumbass blew only two things to smithereens: efficiency and pleasantness in flying. Oh, sorry, three: his crotch.


Yeah, i'm not concerned with terrorists. I'm concerned with my flight (Delta, Buffalo-to-Miami by way of somewhere else i forget) being on time next weekend.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Monte wrote:
You can certainly have that opinion, but you're simply incorrect. Far be it from me to endeavor to dispel you of your ill-conceived notions, however.


Fiat declarations and argument do not make. At least provide a fallacious argument.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:32 pm 
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We seem to be incentivizing attacks here in the US as opposed to abroad:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZW ... E3OTZiMGU=

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More jarring still were Obama’s references to the terrorist as a “suspect” who “allegedly tried to ignite an explosive device.” You can hear the echo of FDR: “Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — Japanese naval and air force suspects allegedly bombed Pearl Harbor.”

Obama reassured the nation that this “suspect” had been charged. Reassurance? The president should be saying: We have captured an enemy combatant — an illegal combatant under the laws of war: no uniform, direct attack on civilians — and now to prevent future attacks, he is being interrogated regarding information he may have about al-Qaeda in Yemen.

Instead, Abdulmutallab is dispatched to some Detroit-area jail and immediately lawyered up. At which point — surprise! — he stops talking.

This absurdity renders hollow Obama’s declaration that “we will not rest until we find all who were involved.” Once we’ve given Abdulmutallab the right to remain silent, we have gratuitously forfeited our right to find out from him precisely who else was involved, namely those who trained, instructed, armed, and sent him.

This is all quite mad even in Obama’s terms. He sends 30,000 troops to fight terror overseas, yet if any terrorists come to attack us here, they are magically transformed from enemy into defendant.

The logic is perverse. If we find Abdulmutallab in an al-Qaeda training camp in Yemen, where he is merely preparing for a terror attack, we snuff him out with a Predator — no judge, no jury, no qualms. But if we catch him in the United States in the very act of mass murder, he instantly acquires protection not just from execution by drone but even from interrogation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:40 pm 
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The 'alleged' part is just the lawyer in Obama talking.

As to the rest, the guy is worrying too much. If we want to prosecute this guy, we need to do it this way, and I don't think anyone doesn't want to. I doubt this guy had a lot of support since the bomb was a dud and it's not as if terrorist organizations have a hard time making functional bombs. I also doubt he was singing like a canary before the lawyers arrived as the article implies.

He'll start talking either as part of a plea bargain or something when it no longer avails him to keep secrets - or he never will, and wouldn't have anyhow.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Dash wrote:
We seem to be incentivizing attacks here in the US as opposed to abroad:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZW ... E3OTZiMGU=

Quote:
More jarring still were Obama’s references to the terrorist as a “suspect” who “allegedly tried to ignite an explosive device.” You can hear the echo of FDR: “Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — Japanese naval and air force suspects allegedly bombed Pearl Harbor.”

Obama reassured the nation that this “suspect” had been charged. Reassurance? The president should be saying: We have captured an enemy combatant — an illegal combatant under the laws of war: no uniform, direct attack on civilians — and now to prevent future attacks, he is being interrogated regarding information he may have about al-Qaeda in Yemen.

Instead, Abdulmutallab is dispatched to some Detroit-area jail and immediately lawyered up. At which point — surprise! — he stops talking.

This absurdity renders hollow Obama’s declaration that “we will not rest until we find all who were involved.” Once we’ve given Abdulmutallab the right to remain silent, we have gratuitously forfeited our right to find out from him precisely who else was involved, namely those who trained, instructed, armed, and sent him.

This is all quite mad even in Obama’s terms. He sends 30,000 troops to fight terror overseas, yet if any terrorists come to attack us here, they are magically transformed from enemy into defendant.

The logic is perverse. If we find Abdulmutallab in an al-Qaeda training camp in Yemen, where he is merely preparing for a terror attack, we snuff him out with a Predator — no judge, no jury, no qualms. But if we catch him in the United States in the very act of mass murder, he instantly acquires protection not just from execution by drone but even from interrogation.



That article is ridiculous. Obama is right. He is a "suspect" until convicted, no matter how overwhelming the evidence. He is entitled to due process.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:59 am 
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Which, as the article points out, incentivizes making the attacks on our turf, where we won't shoot you just for being armed, where we give you a lawyer instead of a waterboard, and where we have a burden of proof to levy lasting consequences against you.

Given that, who's going to pass on coming here to attack us, rather than fighting our forces on their own turf where we'll just shoot them?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:25 am 
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Dash wrote:
We seem to be incentivizing attacks here in the US as opposed to abroad:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZW ... E3OTZiMGU=

Quote:
More jarring still were Obama’s references to the terrorist as a “suspect” who “allegedly tried to ignite an explosive device.” You can hear the echo of FDR: “Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — Japanese naval and air force suspects allegedly bombed Pearl Harbor.”

Obama reassured the nation that this “suspect” had been charged. Reassurance? The president should be saying: We have captured an enemy combatant — an illegal combatant under the laws of war: no uniform, direct attack on civilians — and now to prevent future attacks, he is being interrogated regarding information he may have about al-Qaeda in Yemen.

Instead, Abdulmutallab is dispatched to some Detroit-area jail and immediately lawyered up. At which point — surprise! — he stops talking.

This absurdity renders hollow Obama’s declaration that “we will not rest until we find all who were involved.” Once we’ve given Abdulmutallab the right to remain silent, we have gratuitously forfeited our right to find out from him precisely who else was involved, namely those who trained, instructed, armed, and sent him.

This is all quite mad even in Obama’s terms. He sends 30,000 troops to fight terror overseas, yet if any terrorists come to attack us here, they are magically transformed from enemy into defendant.

The logic is perverse. If we find Abdulmutallab in an al-Qaeda training camp in Yemen, where he is merely preparing for a terror attack, we snuff him out with a Predator — no judge, no jury, no qualms. But if we catch him in the United States in the very act of mass murder, he instantly acquires protection not just from execution by drone but even from interrogation.


The issue is the torture, not the killing. Remember, it is 100% legal under international law/the Geneva Convention to summarily execute unlawful enemy combatants. The torture is what is illegal and that's why there's a controversy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:35 am 
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wait... who got tortured?

I need to watch more TV I guess...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:17 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Which, as the article points out, incentivizes making the attacks on our turf, where we won't shoot you just for being armed, where we give you a lawyer instead of a waterboard, and where we have a burden of proof to levy lasting consequences against you.

Given that, who's going to pass on coming here to attack us, rather than fighting our forces on their own turf where we'll just shoot them?


You cannot remove due process for one without removing due process for all. If you don't think due process is a worthwhile thing for this suspect, then it's not worthwhile for you, because there is no difference. Law by decree to your liking?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:25 am 
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We just need to re-define the process to make it more streamlined in cases where guilt is obvious.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:40 am 
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Midgen wrote:
We just need to re-define the process to make it more streamlined in cases where guilt is obvious.


That's a dangerous and slippery slope. The moment you do it here, someone's going to try to apply it in another case that he feels is just as obvious, and eventually it's going to be used when it shouldn't have been.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Which, as the article points out, incentivizes making the attacks on our turf, where we won't shoot you just for being armed, where we give you a lawyer instead of a waterboard, and where we have a burden of proof to levy lasting consequences against you.

Given that, who's going to pass on coming here to attack us, rather than fighting our forces on their own turf where we'll just shoot them?


What would you have us do? Abandon our civil rights and legal system?

If we do that, then the terrorists really have won.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:41 pm 
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So nobody's got any news on what airport security has been like for flyers recently? I fly out of Buffalo in 4 days.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:44 pm 
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I flew from MCI->DFW->BWI on the 28 (did the reverse on the 21). Seemed normal at departure and destination. Then again, my dad gave me the hook-up in first class where they all but suck your dick to keep you happy. Security was it's normal, slightly sub-par TSA self.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:46 pm 
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It hasn't really changed unless you're flying into the US from a "special" site. Whether your travel plans encompass a site deemed "special" by the DHS, Taly, I don't know.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Which, as the article points out, incentivizes making the attacks on our turf, where we won't shoot you just for being armed, where we give you a lawyer instead of a waterboard, and where we have a burden of proof to levy lasting consequences against you.

Given that, who's going to pass on coming here to attack us, rather than fighting our forces on their own turf where we'll just shoot them?


Then we give up liberty, and the protections of the rights of the accused because "its too hard" to do it. What other ways can you come up with to destroy this nation from within so that there is nothing left worth fighting for?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Talya wrote:
So nobody's got any news on what airport security has been like for flyers recently? I fly out of Buffalo in 4 days.


I had two flights on New Years day. Both times the planes were over an hour late, due to the planes I was flying on were in-bound from the states. We were told it was caused specifically due to take off time due to extra measures. They wanted to be real certain that we weren't blaming the airline(Air Canada.)

So as far as I'd say, expect delays. If you have tight connection times, it could suck.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Look, I'm not suggesting that we treat "terrorists" who commit acts of terror within our borders with less than due process.

What perturbs me is that we're offering criminal rights to a guy who hasn't even set foot on our soil yet and was planning on attacking us.

I've been thinking about this off and on for the past couple weeks, and really, this comes down to this: we are not protecting our borders in a time when we believe that we are under significant threat of attack from foreign parties. This should be the jurisdiction of our military.

Air travel into our country is a part of border security. Thus, I want to see the military taking point on this in a truly secure fashion. Set up a handful of essentially island airports, and funnel air traffic through them as a centralized security screening and customs check, much like Ellis Island was for decades to immigration. **** the TSA. Deploy MPs and small military brigades to manage it, and do it right. The coast guard gets to patrol our shores before they reach our soil, why do we have a non-military organization policing our inbound airways?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Uinan wrote:
Talya wrote:
So nobody's got any news on what airport security has been like for flyers recently? I fly out of Buffalo in 4 days.


I had two flights on New Years day. Both times the planes were over an hour late, due to the planes I was flying on were in-bound from the states. We were told it was caused specifically due to take off time due to extra measures. They wanted to be real certain that we weren't blaming the airline(Air Canada.)

So as far as I'd say, expect delays. If you have tight connection times, it could suck.



If you were taking Air Canada, you were on an international flight, then?

This is good. From what I've seen, most of the delays are involving flights into the USA from Canada. The thing is, I'm crossing the border at Fort Eerie into Buffalo, NY by car (which can have its own delays), and flying Delta Airlines domesticly from Buffalo to (insert stopover point I forget here) to Miami. I don't even think it's a connecting flight, I think it's getting back on the same airplane after (although it's a significant stopover time, regardless.)

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:56 pm 
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We flew to Austin from Montgomery with a connection in Atlanta (Christmas day), then back again (Jan. 3) with the connection in Memphis this time. Flying out was no problem at all. Flying back, security was tightening in Austin and we almost didn't get through in time to get to our plane, but was otherwise fine.


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