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 Post subject: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:31 pm 
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The narration is kinda ridiculous in that it makes it sound like this guy personally rediscovered long-lost ancient and medieval archery techniques, but I have to say, his skills do seem pretty impressive. Can anyone with actual archery knowledge/experience confirm whether his technique would actually be practical in battle?



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:06 pm 
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I have no knowledge of archery techniques or history, but that video seems like something The Onion might produce if they wanted to make satire about people taking archery too seriously.

And again, I'm probably not the right person to be critical, but his footwork seems terrible, and all of the dramatic arm waving gives his performance the feel of something produced by a 12 year old.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:43 pm 
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Yeah, stylistically, he's like a grown-up version of Star Wars Kid, but with a bow. Still, he's damn quick and seems to hit the targets, so there at least appears to be some skill underneath.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:55 pm 
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Let me consult my local expert on English Warfare and get back to you.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:15 am 
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They bring up this point in the video, but I still wonder about the draw of his bow. He has to be using a very light weight bow to be able to pull and release that fast, no? They say he can still go through mail and a gambeson, but I'm still iffy. English long bows were upwards of 80-90 pounds, or higher, depending on your source. And the whole thing about shooting at close range? Who cares! At that point if you have a fully armored man (on horseback!) riding down on you, you're not going to be drawing and shooting, you're gonna be running. The whole point of archery in the military sense is massed fire. There's a reason we talk today of the "sky being dark with arrows." Send 500 arrows at the correct range and generally on-target, that's gonna hurt. Do it three times in a minute, and it's pretty devastating.

The other thing is that I would always assume that the arrow should be on the right side of the bow. So, putting it there doesn't seem that revolutionary to me. But maybe that's just because that last time I actually did any archery was in the dim and distant past of high school. I always thought that the putting it on the left side was just some stupid Elvish thing they did in movies.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:50 pm 
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Aethien wrote:
The whole point of archery in the military sense is massed fire..


Mounted Comanches and Mongols might argue with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:43 pm 
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It looks fake, with how quick he's drawing and firing, and yet, lots of dead targets. Definitely some cool stuff, if true.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:34 pm 
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He's legit. I first saw this dude maybe two years ago, he's gotten better.

Aethien wrote:
They bring up this point in the video, but I still wonder about the draw of his bow. He has to be using a very light weight bow to be able to pull and release that fast, no?


Not necessarily, he's using both arms to draw the bow instead of just pulling with one.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:04 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aethien wrote:
The whole point of archery in the military sense is massed fire..


Mounted Comanches and Mongols might argue with that.


Mongols at least used *very* different style bows, with effective draws ~ 200lbs, and actual draws around 30-80lbs. They used asymmetric limbs though.

Their style of horse archery wasn't anything like that shown in the video.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:30 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aethien wrote:
The whole point of archery in the military sense is massed fire..


Mounted Comanches and Mongols might argue with that.


Mongols at least used *very* different style bows, with effective draws ~ 200lbs, and actual draws around 30-80lbs. They used asymmetric limbs though.

Their style of horse archery wasn't anything like that shown in the video.


No, but they did not rely on massed fire.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:40 pm 
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That part is very true.

Massed fire was only really important with the true english longbows, which were not mobile in any real sense.

Also, those longbows were meant to be used against plate armor, rather than chain- pretty sure the draw on any bow that mobile (non compound) won't be enough to punch through plate, even with the proper head.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:54 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
That part is very true.

Massed fire was only really important with the true english longbows, which were not mobile in any real sense.

Also, those longbows were meant to be used against plate armor, rather than chain- pretty sure the draw on any bow that mobile (non compound) won't be enough to punch through plate, even with the proper head.


No, that's not accurate. Long bows were generally ineffective against plate. Perhaps a direct hit at close range could penetrate, but as stated above, long bows were for distance.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:14 am 
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I'll have to find the tests someone did a few years ago for the penetrating power of an English longbow.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:19 am 
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Here's a good discussion of plate armor penetration around the Agincourt era:

http://historum.com/medieval-byzantine- ... our-2.html

With the lighter end bows, no, but the 120-150 lb bows with a bodkin? Up to 200 yes away.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:49 am 
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The video is a little dramatic ("Look at me! I'm Legolas!"), but the basics (keeping arrows in the draw hand, firing multiple at a time, etc) are all based on historical technique.

I have to note that horse bows can do some damage. Lots of power, and there are release techniques that let you impart nearly all of the string energy to the arrow.

(My bf does combat archery in the SCA, and is working on adapting medieval Mamluk archery techniques, including shooting multiple arrows at once. He uses horsebows.)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Kassai Lajos (horsebows.com) is a really interesting guy, and makes amazing bows. He's also got some links to demonstrations of people using them.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:40 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Yeah, stylistically, he's like a grown-up version of Star Wars Kid, but with a bow. Still, he's damn quick and seems to hit the targets, so there at least appears to be some skill underneath.
Pretty much sums up how I felt when I saw this a couple of days ago. "This has got to be some kind of joke, look - he's prancing around like a kid at his first LARP ... but he *is* hitting all of his targets."

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:27 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Here's a good discussion of plate armor penetration around the Agincourt era:

http://historum.com/medieval-byzantine- ... our-2.html

With the lighter end bows, no, but the 120-150 lb bows with a bodkin? Up to 200 yes away.


I skimmed this only, and it seems interesting, but it's a forum, and seems to be short on citations for actual calculations or studies.

For what it's worth, wikipedia has a decent discussion with citations to actual studies performed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Armour_penetration

Bold is mine:

Quote:
Armour penetration
Modern testing

In an early modern test by Saxton Pope, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus mail armour.[28][29]

A 2006 test was made by Matheus Bane using a 75 lbf (330 N) draw (at 28") bow, shooting at 10 yards; according to Bane's calculations, this would be approximately equivalent to a 110 lbf (490 N) bow at 250 yards.[30] Measured against a replica of the thinnest contemporary "Jack coat" armour, a 905 grain needle bodkin and a 935 grain curved broadhead penetrated over 3.5 inches (89 mm). ("Jack coat" armour could be up to twice as thick as the coat tested; in Bane's opinion such a thick coat would have stopped bodkin arrows but not the cutting force of broadhead arrows.) Against "high quality riveted maille", the needle bodkin and curved broadhead penetrated 2.8". Against a coat of plates, the needle bodkin achieved 0.3" penetration. The curved broadhead did not penetrate but caused 0.3" of deformation of the metal. Results against plate armour of "minimum thickness" (1.2mm) were similar to the coat of plates, in that the needle bodkin penetrated to a shallow depth, the other arrows not at all. In Bane's view, the plate armour would have kept out all the arrows if thicker or worn with more padding.

Other modern tests described by Bane include those by Williams (which concluded that longbows could not penetrate mail, but in Bane's view did not use a realistic arrow tip), Robert Hardy's tests (which achieved broadly similar results to Bane), and a Primitive Archer test which demonstrated that a longbow could penetrate a plate armour breastplate. However, the Primitive Archer test used a 160 lbf (710 N) longbow at very short range, generating 160 joules (vs. 73 for Bane and 80 for Williams), so probably not representative of battles of the time.

In 2011, Mike Loades conducted an experiment in which short bodkin arrows were shot at a range of 10 yd (9.1 m) by bows of 140 pounds-force (620 N). The target was covered in a riveted mail over a fabric armour of deerskin over 24 linen layers. While most arrows went through the mail layer, none fully penetrated the textile armour. The experimenters, however, concluded that a long bodkin arrow would have penetrated through this armour combination. Even so, Loades cautions that this experiment did not reflect normal combat ranges and used powerful bows, so may not be typical of battlefield performance.[31]

Other research has also concluded that later medieval armour, such as that of the Italian city state mercenary companies, was effective at stopping contemporary arrows.[32]
Contemporary accounts

Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:

... [I]n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.[33]

Archery was described by contemporaries as ineffective against plate armour in the Battle of Neville's Cross (1346), the siege of Bergerac (1345), and the Battle of Poitiers (1356); such armour became available to European knights of fairly modest means by the late 14th century, though never to all soldiers in any army. Strickland and Hardy suggest that "even at a range of 240 yards heavy war arrows shot from bows of poundages in the mid- to upper range possessed by the Mary Rose bows would have been capable of killing or severely wounding men equipped with armour of wrought iron. Higher-quality armour of steel would have given considerably greater protection, which accords well with the experience of Oxford's men against the elite French vanguard at Poitiers in 1356, and des Ursin's statement that the French knights of the first ranks at Agincourt, which included some of the most important (and thus best-equipped) nobles, remained comparatively unhurt by the English arrows".[34]
Summary

Modern tests and contemporary accounts agree therefore that well-made plate armour could protect against longbows. However this did not necessarily make the longbow ineffective; thousands of longbowmen were deployed in the English victory at Agincourt against plate armoured French knights in 1415. Clifford Rogers has argued that while longbows might not have been able to penetrate steel breastplates at Agincourt they could still penetrate the thinner armour on the limbs. Most of the French knights advanced on foot but, exhausted by walking across wet muddy terrain in heavy armour enduring a "terrifying hail of arrow shot", they were overwhelmed in the melee.

Less heavily armoured soldiers were more vulnerable than knights. For example, enemy crossbowmen were forced to retreat at Crecy when deployed without their protecting pavises. Horses were generally less well protected than the knights themselves; shooting the French knights' horses from the side (where they were less well armoured) is described by contemporary accounts of the Battle of Poitiers, and at Agincourt John Keegan has argued that the main effect of the longbow would have been in injuring the horses of the mounted French knights.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:40 pm 
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So Geekdad has up a critique.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:03 pm 
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He's just excited to be on camera. When he jumped off the log and all his arrows flew out of his quiver was the best trick.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Speed Archery
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:01 am 
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Lars Anderson defends himself against critics.



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