The Glade 4.0

What say you, Gladers?

What about all the unvaccinated kids from south america? what do we do about them?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

If you mean illegal immigrant kids, I believe we vaccinate them when they get detained. I believe we also require standard vaccinations for legal immigrants of all ages.

Except we aren't doing that, and that's probably as much to blame for our measles problems as the few who don't vaccinate.

That aside Getting vaccinated is up to the parents, allowing unvaccinated kids to attend public schools is up to the state BoE or the local district.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Seems stupid not to do it, but the precedent set by legally requiring it is bad, at least beyond a state level.

However, if people are free to choose not to vaccinate, it seems to make sense they could be found culpable, to some degree, for perpetuating illness.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

What's your evidence for that, Rori? The official policy is to vaccinate detained kids, so why do you believe we aren't following that policy? Also, it's worth noting that almost all South American and Central American countries actually have MMR vaccination rates as high as or higher than the rate here in the US, and the few that don't are only a few percentage points below us.

Citation needed.

Incidentally, I voted for "require the vaccination and take the kids if necessary", but I would caveat that by allowing for a religious exemption. For the record, though: "I read an article that said vaccines cause autism"; "my kids are like, totally healthy, because they only eat organic, locally-farmed, vegan foods"; and "the government can't tell me what's best for my own kids" don't qualify as religious beliefs.

http://www.wnd.com/2005/06/30768/

http://www.aapsonline.org/index.php/sit ... immigrants

There are diseases out there besides MMR, and while the policy for legal immigration is that documentation of MMR and other vaccines is required I have not seen any evidence that illegals are being vaccinated upon arrival.

You guys need to start doing your own citing instead of just demanding other people do it.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So you think that removing children from stable homes is better for them than a 1 in 116,000 chance of getting a typically non-lethal disease?

/golf clap

I'm not primarily thinking about what's best for the anti-vaxxers' kids; I'm thinking about what's best for mine, and that is doing what's necessary to preserve herd immunity and prevent the resurgence of extremely serious and entirely preventable diseases in the US population. That said, I'm overstating a bit in that I'm currently kind of on the fence between "their choice, but ban the kids from public places where kids congregate" and "require the vaccinations" solely because the anti-vaxxer movement isn't widespread enough just yet to pose a serious threat. It seems to be getting there, though, and if it does, there's plenty of legal, Constitutional, historical and moral justification for requiring vaccination as a matter of law. If we have to do that again to prevent this **** from getting out of control, then I say **** the anti-vaxxers and their idiotic sensibilities.

You realize you're "citing" World Net Daily and a conservative political advocacy group with a whopping 5000 members that was formed to oppose socialized medicine and has, over the years, advocated such stellar medical positions as (i) arguing that human activity doesn't cause global warming, (ii) abortion is linked to breast cancer, (iii) and HIV doesn't cause AIDS?

I think a bare assertion would be preferable than those links.

As for me citing things, though, here you go:





In any event, I'm not arguing that there's no risk of serious infectious diseases entering with illegal immigrants. I'm arguing that, given the countries they most come from have vaccination rates at least as high as our own, and the official policy is for unvaccinated illegal immigrant kids to be vaccinated when they get detained, I'm not seeing much reason to believe Rori's suggestion that illegal immigrants are a likely cause of recent outbreaks. Hence my request that he explain what he based that suggestion on.

So it's not a woman's right to have her kids not vaccinated, but it is to have them dismembered in the womb?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

You've already made one statement that's been challenged and you've ignored, please don't start an entirely new tangent against an argument that only one vote has been cast for.

If you want to go to public school, you must be vaccinated. There are specific, rare reasons to not vaccinate. Then, and only then should an exemption be granted.

Anti vaxxers are morons.

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Holy shitsnacks!

The issue with herd immunity and vaccination is that those most at risk from some of these diseases are those who are too young to be vaccinated.

While I would personally like to see the kids of those who does not vaccinate forcibly taken away from the parents, I believe the transmission of a communal disease should be the same as any other wilful harm charge. (e.g. Typhoid Mary)

The parents of the child should be tried based on the consequence of their actions.

1. I'm not required to play by your rules.

2. Sourcing information was provided by another poster

3. I'm tired of spending my valuable downtime researching and writing well sourced follow ups only to have them summarily ignored.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Honest to God, I cannot believe in the year 2015 that this is even up for **** debate.

We should probably implant kids' hands with digitally signed RFID chips to enforce the admission to public gathering places for kids vote, right?

/devil's advocate

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

First, I'm pretty sure whether human activity causes global warming or not is not a medical question.

Second, the question I was addressing is not anything about the effectiveness of vaccines or the degree to which illegal immigrant children are causing present outbreaks, but rather whether they are being provided with immunizations after apprehension.

It is very difficult to google up any source at all on whether they are being provided such immunizations or not, but regardless the policy you are referring to are the standards for legal immigration. I link what I linked because it was all that was available - and because no, bare assertion is not better than a shitty source. If you want to dismiss the shitty source, be my guest, but you guys don't get to demand evidence from Rori when you can't be assed to provide any yourself. "citation needed" is not an argument (and yes I realize that was Lenas not you).

I realize the nice people at ORR are claiming to screen people and give them vaccinations, but the fact is that when I was actually standing out there in the sally port packed with over 400 aliens and twice that many inside the station this past summer, I saw all the nice folks there to help with medical screening and they were screening for exactly 2 things - scabies and chicken pox - and they were not vaccinating anyone at all.

Yes, when immigrant children reach other staging facilities they might receive "additional screenings and vaccinations" but it is not happening "at border stations" at all, as the source wants you to think. Furthermore, if the child is already infected vaccination won't do anything to stop them spreading it further; vaccination is prevention not cure and some vaccinations (maybe most or all) can't be given to someone who is already sick.

Right now, when numbers have died down for the winter things are not packed as tightly, but these are still detention facilities. People are in tight quarters, and it is much much worse when people are jam packed into facilities and onto busses and such. Worse, because of the sheer volume during the summer surge, health screenings are very cursory. I know because I'm standing right there when they do it day after day.

So while the policy might be what you say it is and immunization rates for MMR in South America might be as well, the fact is that illegal immigrant children are NOT receiving vaccinations or additional screening upon apprehension until AFTER they have already been packed into crowded facilities with other people they can infect for up to several days.

At least 10 people I work with contracted scabies from illegal immigrants this past year.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I'm torn on the rights of children vs. the rights of parents. Enforced vaccinations definitely overrides parental authority ... but is this new? We already protect children from various abuses the parent might inflict upon them - withholding needed medical care is failing to provide the necessities of life. On the other hand, this is a slippery slope -- where does it end? How much does the government get to decide what is appropriate and what is not in the raising of children? Is the state the ultimate guardian of the child, and you the parent just being coopted into caring for them? I don't find this acceptable.

My mind is not made up.

However... there is no question, that if you don't get your child vaccinated, they shouldn't be allowed in a public school.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Actually, this is one of the reasons I lean towards mandatory vaccination - there's just no plausible way to isolate the unvaccinated people from everyone else. We can do it for schools, sports programs, etc., but short of chipping everyone as you suggest, there's no way to keep unvaccinated kids out of playgrounds, amusement parks, toy stores, clothing stores, and all the other places they're likely to infect other people.

No, I'm referring to the policy that requires medical screening and vaccinations for illegal immigrant kids that get detained, which is what the articles I linked discuss.


Fair enough, but just for the record, I don't usually ask people to source their argument unless I've done at least some Googling myself to see if I can find some support for their view. In this case, when I did a quick Google of Rori's claim, all I found were some articles quoting comments from anti-immigration politicians and media personalities, which were quickly countered by people at the relevant agencies and medical facilities pointing out that there's no evidence to support those claims, the source countries have high vaccination rates, and we screen and vaccinate detained kids anyway. So, I asked him for a source. That said, I agree that simply demanding evidence can be rude, so I should have at least noted that I was asking because what he was saying was contrary to everything I've read.


Aye, this I don't dispute. Many of the articles I read that debunked the claims of illegal immigrants spreading serious diseases like TB and measles to the general population went on to note that the facilities were understaffed and overcrowded, posing a potential risk to the people being held there and the personnel tasked with overseeing them. The articles also noted that less serious but still very unpleasant things like scabies, lice, chicken pox, dysentery, etc. are common among newly-detained illegal immigrants, and the crowded facilities pose a clear risk of contagion among the detainees and personnel.

That said, though, the issue that everyone's concerned about isn't scabies; it's measles, TB and other serious diseases, and for those things, there doesn't appear to be any reason to believe that the illegal immigrants being held pose a threat to the general population at this time. More to the point, though, there's zero evidence that they are in any way likely to be connected to the recent outbreaks of measles, which is what Rori was claiming.

Obviously, Measles was being spread from anthropomorphic mice and ducks.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Hm, I wonder if sentient mice and ducks would think of them as rodentomorphic and anatidomorphic humans?