The Glade 4.0

Do I need to go back and get those horrible pictures again? Do we really need that? Because with all due respect, DE, your memory is very selective. Seriously.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That isn't the point. You've ignored the point.

Let me try.

On the last version of the glade, you Monty, posted a google search of pictures as evidence of whatever it was you were debating about with others. You claimed that as evidence.

We now have someone using a google search to support their argument against you and you are now declaring that doing so isn't a legitimate way to make their case.

Do you understand?

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I'm sorry, but that is not an entirely accurate representation of what occurred, but there is no way to prove that.

I used the image search because it is the single most comprehensive and easy to use search engine for such photographs. I directly linked several images from that site, and then included a link to my actual search in addition to that.

I would appreciate it if people were a little more honest about their representations of what happened in that thread. It is difficult to engage in rational, even headed discourse if you are constantly dealing with a barrage of bad memory on the part of your opponents.

Again, I can go get the images, but I would prefer to not, as they are rather depressing.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Actually, that's exactly what happened. We all remember it. You are not owning up to it because it countered your argument when someone did it to you. I think it's safe to say that all of use would also ask that you please be a little more honest when you are called on something that you did.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

There is no way to prove that, either way, Nitefox. And so we are left with the kind of situation where you can either take me at my word, or not. Given that I'm the one being accused of something here, the burden of proof really does rest on the shoulders of those making an accusation.

Clearly we all remember things differently.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

My memory is not selective at all. You need to provide the pictures again.

I want to see some pretty significant quantities of blood, as in like streams of it running down the gutters, in numerous places in the same time. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, the streets are not "running with blood". That's an extremely loaded way to put things so you need to show something pretty incontrovertible to back it up. Not just "it meets Monty's standards for 'running with blood'" but "there's so much blood no one can possibly argue."

You don't need to worry about my ability to handle these picutres either.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Is this really necessary, ya'll? Can't we just let this one go?

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

No, but perhaps Monty would eb good enough to put spoiler tags around them.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Sorry, but a good number of people remember it that way. You using the fact that the old board is gone as a defense, is well, weak. No offense, but no, I don't take you at your word on this issue when I CLEARLY remember you doing so(as well as others).

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Forgive me, but just because a lot of people remember something a certain way does not make it true.

Everyone here is using the fact that the old board is gone as a defense. It's what's preventing me from exonerating myself to these charges and accusations.

I would appreciate it if this line of discussion ends. It is serving no purpose, and will only lead to graphic images posted on the board, and some form of fight.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

And just because you disagree with those people doesn't make you right.

It isn't about the pictures Monty. It's about you using a google search of pictures(they could have been of bunnies) to show evidence of something, then you saying that someone else using a google search to show evidence of something is somehow wrong. Do you not understand that? Do you not see that is what myself and at least 2 others are saying? It's not about the pictures Monty, it's about the fact you used a google search to show evidence, then called into question someone else doing the exact same thing.

All you need to do is say "yes, in the recent past I used a google search of pictures as evidence of something in a debate and yet I declared that someone else using a google search in a debate wasn't acceptable when used against me(in a manner of speaking)".

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

So, what burden of proof would the board have accepted? You guys are focusing very heavily on the google search, but that was not the main thrust of my argument on the old board, and would not be.

I posted actual images of blood running down the streets of Baghdad to refute DE's claim that I was using hyperbole. There were a great many more pictures on the search I did to back up my assertion and refute DE's argument, so I posted the search itself in order to let folks go and find out for themselves.

I don't see how that compares to the current situation. Rafael posted a clearly illustrated (and horribly offensive) picture of Obama in a Nazi uniform leading a throng of Nazi followers, but that was clearly illustrated. The pictures I posted were actual photographs.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Ok, before that picture Monty. Do you not remember? We aren't talking about the picture of Obama. Try again.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

No, you didn't post any such picture. You posted a picture of a puddle of blood, with the camera very close to it. It did not show a street with blood runnning down it at all.

Post it again if it exists.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I'm sorry, Diamondeye, but I think your memory of how things went is terribly faulty.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Oh for Pete's sake.
Here's one: http://www.democracyforcalifornia.com/blog/archives/002140.html

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Monty, here is what we are talking about.

viewtopic.php?p=1945#p1945

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

We're going around in circles.

Yes, I said that. Because that was the only thing he posted.

That is distinctly different than what I did on the previous board. I posted the photos themselves, and then also a search.

If he had posted some evidence outside of a hit count on google, you guys would have a point. But he didn't.

Do you see the difference?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You didn't do anything different. You posted a google search as evidence/example, he posted a google search as evidence/example. You want what you did to be taken seriously, you do not want to take what he did seriously. It's a double standard.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. I had direct links to the photographs as well as the search link.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You posted a google search as evidence/examples, so did he. You want what you did to be taken seriously, you don't want to take what he did seriously. It really is that simple. It's a double standard.

I've proven my point whether you want to own up to it or not so I'm done. Even I get tired of repeating myself.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

*Le sigh*

Negative proof fallacy

Argument from ignorance fallacy (a.k.a. argument from personal conviction)

There are two forms:

X is true because there is no proof that X is false.
X is false because there is no proof that X is true.

Both are logically fallacious.

I'd rather not retread a question of evidence for a thread that no longer exists, so I just leave it at this:

Claiming that the photographs must actually depict war-related violence simply because there is no evidence that they don't is clearly a logical fallacy. It would also be a logical fallacy to claim that the pictures must be fake or must depict something other than what was claimed simply because they lacked citations, references, and context would also be fallacy of the same time.

However, as far as I can tell, no one has made the second claim, Monte. At least not in this thread, anyway. I think you fail to make the distinction between two very different claims: "You did not provide any validation/references/etc. for your images." vs. "Your images are false." The first claim does not entail the second.

What has been claimed is that you posted the pictures without any sort of citations or references that would allow a person to determine where they came from, and what they depicted. Again, the thread no longer exists, so I have nothing to go on but my own recollection. As far as that goes, I don't remember any of the images being sourced, but take that only for what it is -- a single human recollection. I can't prove that my recollection of the matter is accurate.


Now to the matter of google image search vs. google hit counts. While I appreciate the point that DFK is trying to make, these strike me as separate (if related) issues. The first raises the question as to whether the fact that google returns a particular image in a search for a phrase constitutes acceptable proof that the image actually and accurately depicts what was searched for. IMHO, it does not. It certainly wouldn't meet any journalistic or legal standards for evidence.

The second raises the question of whether or not hit counts from a "googlefight" have the same statistical validity as an opinion poll. My opinion is that they are not, though this is an entirely separate issue from whether or not opinion polls themselves have much statistical validity, which is then a totally separate issue from how much weight public opinion itself ought to have in lawmaking. I.e. just because something is popular and people like it, doesn't mean that it's right or a good idea. But on the other hand, we have to balance this against the principles of a Representative government.

But in any case, I don't think that anyone other than Montegue took Araf--- Mus's comment to be an entirely serious claim of proof of anything.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Actually, I didn't take it to be serious proof at all, which is why I commented.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Monte, had you actually posted pictures from a source other than just a list of hits from a google search, I wouldn't have even brought it up. Because such an absurd method was used, I brought it up. I remember this vividly, but whatever.

I'll just say this: goddammit Art ...

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

...

Like I said, I'm pretty sure that everyone understood his post to be tongue-in-cheek. Not serious. Deliberately flippant for humorous purposes. I mean...yeah, you can comment on how it's not serious proof, but what's the point? No one thought that it was to begin with.

It's like pointing out that Wile E. Coyote wouldn't really hang in the air like that for a few seconds before falling off a cliff.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.