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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:06 am 
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I like his writing style:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35018
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About the first decade of what was to be the Second American Century, the pessimists have been proven right.

According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade.

The United States began the century with a budget surplus. We ended with a deficit of 10 percent of gross domestic product, which will be repeated in 2010. Where the economy was at full employment in 2000, 10 percent of the labor force is out of work today and another 7 percent is underemployed or has given up looking for a job.


Between one-fourth and one-third of all U.S. manufacturing jobs have disappeared in 10 years, the fruits of a free-trade ideology that has proven anything but free for this country. Our future is being outsourced -- to China.

While the median income of American families was stagnant, the national debt doubled.

The dollar lost half its value against the euro. Once the most self-sufficient republic in history, which produced 96 percent of all it consumed, the U.S.A. is almost as dependent on foreign nations today for manufactured goods, and the loans to pay for them, as we were in the early years of the republic.

What the British were to us then, China is today.

Beijing holds the mortgage and grows impatient as we endlessly borrow on equity and refuse to begin paying it down. The possibility exists of an eventual run on the dollar or even a U.S. debt default.

Who did this to us? We did it to ourselves.

We sold ourselves a lot of snake oil about the Global Economy, interdependence, free trade and "it doesn't make any difference where goods are produced." The George W. Bush Republicans ran up the deficit with tax cuts, two wars and a splurge in social spending to rival the guns-and-butter of the Great Society.

Abandoning its role as the fellow who comes and takes away the punch bowl when the party's getting good, the Fed kept the money flowing fast and free, creating the tech bubble that burst in Y2K and the stock and housing bubble that burst at decade's end.

To pull us back from the cliff's edge, over which we were headed a year ago, the Fed doubled the money supply, while the administration ran up deficit spending to the highest level since World War II.

Unlike World War II, however, there is no end in sight to these deficits.

The stock market, which flat-lined over the decade, had to surge 50 percent in 2009 to retrieve the worst losses since the Depression.

Everyone, it seems, except for Washington bureaucrats and Wall Street, for whom the bonuses never seem to stop, has been hammered by the sinking home values and shrinking portfolios.

After Sept. 11, the nation was united behind a president as it had not been since Pearl Harbor. But instead of focusing on the enemies who did this to us, we took Osama bin Laden's bait and plunged into a war in Iraq that bled and divided us, alienated Europe and the Arab world, and destroyed the Republican Party's reputation as the reliable custodian of national security and foreign policy.

The party paid -- with the loss of both houses in 2006 and the presidency in 2008 -- but the nation has not stopped paying.

With nearly 200,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and another 30,000 more on the way, al-Qaida is now in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and North Africa, while the huge U.S. military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq serves as its recruiting poster.

Again, it is not a malevolent fate that has done this to us. We did it to ourselves. We believed all that hubristic blather about our being the "greatest empire since Rome," the "indispensable nation" and "unipolar power" advancing to "benevolent global hegemony" in a series of "cakewalk" wars to "end tyranny in our world."

After a decade of self-delusion and self-indulgence, we must stop deceiving ourselves. As Hurricane Katrina demonstrated, the "can-do" nation that won World War II in Europe and the Pacific in less than four years, that put a man on the moon in the same decade JFK said we would, is history.

We have a government that cannot balance its books, defend its borders or win its wars. And what is it now doing? Drafting another entitlement program as we are informed that the Social Security and Medicare trust funds have unfunded liabilities in the trillions.

At the end of the first decade of the 21st century, the question is not whether we will preside over the creation of a New World Order, but whether America's decline is irreversible.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:22 am 
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I have to mostly agree with his article.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:11 am 
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According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade.


While the point of the article is legitimate, this is an example of "how to lie with statistics."

A higher relative increase in the GDP of other countries in the world can cause the same apparent "drop" in the relative fraction the USA produces, but does not represent any decline at all in the actual GDP of the USA. Since nations are not in competition in this way, but benefit from other nations increasing their GDP, this "drop" is not necessarily a negative thing for America. The prosperity of others makes us more prosperous. Think of it in terms of an MMO: If I'm doing 32% of the damage on a raid, the raid is likely in trouble, because the others aren't doing enough. If the others in the raid start picking up their socks and doing more damage, they might drop me down to 24%. My damage might not have changed at all. Am I better off or worse off for it?

America's economy is in trouble. There are a lot of problems. The relative percentage of world GDP, however, is a meaningless comparison that is being twisted to strengthen an already strong case, but in the end makes him look like he's lying. Compare America's economy to America's economy if you want to show a decline.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:31 am 
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What really confuses me is how bad outsourcing turns out to be for a country, contrary to all common sense. Isn't it incredibly stupid to pay someone $20/hour to perform a task when there are people willing to do the same task for $2/hour?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:33 am 
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Not when your economy is based on service labor and consumption through spending borrowed money. In order to maintain such a farce, outsourcing cannot occur.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:46 am 
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Rafael wrote:
Not when your economy is based on service labor and consumption through spending borrowed money. In order to maintain such a farce, outsourcing cannot occur.


Yeah, but China's economy is definitely not based on this, and their government works long and hard to vigorously stamp out even the slightest evidence of importing or outsourcing. The intentionally devalue the currency, pass huge import tariffs, and other such measures. And they get 10% GDP growth a year out of paying their citiznes three times what someone in Africa would charge.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:48 am 
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Yes, that is what they do. Any particularly inklings as to why?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:51 am 
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Rafael wrote:
Yes, that is what they do. Any particularly inklings as to why?


Honestly, no I have no idea. The US has a service-based, debt economy and outsourcing/importing is bad. China has a manufacturing/saving based economy, and for them outsourcing/importing is also bad. Paying someone many times what someone else would charge is how you have a good economy, even though it defies all common sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:58 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Paying someone many times what someone else would charge is how you have a good economy, even though it defies all common sense.
Here's the problem in your logic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:04 am 
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Well, the libertarians are arguing in favor of mass protectionism. I never thought I'd see that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:05 am 
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Xequecal:

No one's arguing for protectionism. Why do you think it defies common sense to have a healthy wage system?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:07 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Rafael wrote:
Yes, that is what they do. Any particularly inklings as to why?


Honestly, no I have no idea. The US has a service-based, debt economy and outsourcing/importing is bad. China has a manufacturing/saving based economy, and for them outsourcing/importing is also bad. Paying someone many times what someone else would charge is how you have a good economy, even though it defies all common sense.


The problem is there is this preconception that the US provides the demand which sustains the Chinese economy. In terms of trade accounts staying current, it makes sense, but in the forms of flow of actual goods and labor, it makes no sense.

For the US having a service-based, debt driven economy, importing is not only not "bad", but it's necessary in order to maintain such an economy. How many Chinese tourists do you see in the US patronizing US service businesses and US retail stores? Do you see them in numbers porportionate to the amount of goods we purchase through them with their own money in what basically amounts to perpetuated vendor financing?

Your contention is that this is how the world should work - we should borrow their money from them and use it to buy their own products. And in order to maintain this balance, perhaps they should come over here and buy the same things they sold us (borrowing their money to do so) and pay us the priviledge to sell them said items.

Give me a break. All they have to do at any point is pull the plug and it's game over. Harbor no illusions: the only things the US exports anymore are agriculture and media.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:14 am 
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But the only "borrowing" the US does from China is the US government borrowing money from them to pay for government spending. The relationship you describe would still exist even if the government was running a surplus and not borrowing from China.

Beyond that, the world needs a certain amount of manufacturing and a certain amount of services? Doesn't it make sense to put the manufacturing where it costs the least and let everyone else take care of the services?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:16 am 
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Meh, this is all simplistic. There are really no borders when it comes to manufacturing or such. The only thing that matters is where the money goes. Governments (typically) do not own corporations, certain recent acquisitions by the US Fed notwithstanding.

If X-Company manufactures widgets, and company A's shareholders are predominantly american, and it costs $100 per widget to manufacture in America, while they sell for $110 dollars, while yes, all that $110 stays in America, that's as far as any of it goes. If, however, you can get the widgets manufactured in Lower Slobobia for $5, well, $5 per widget is going to the Lower Slobobian workers, the shareholders are making $105 per widget instead of $10 per widget. Still, the economy is worse off, for it, yes?

No. Because now they can also sell those widgets for $10 in Lower Slobobia, and make another $5 per widget. And $40 in Upper Slobobia, where the economy is somewhat better...and all that profit is coming back to the shareholders, who are in the America. They decide to take that profit buy another company in Suicidebombostan, which brings more profits back to america, etc.

The big problems actually occur when X-Company decides to sell its shares outside America, not when they decide to manufacture outside America.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:24 am 
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Talya wrote:
Meh, this is all simplistic. There are really no borders when it comes to manufacturing or such. The only thing that matters is where the money goes. Governments (typically) do not own corporations, certain recent acquisitions by the US Fed notwithstanding.

If X-Company manufactures widgets, and company A's shareholders are predominantly american, and it costs $100 per widget to manufacture in America, while they sell for $110 dollars, while yes, all that $110 stays in America, that's as far as any of it goes. If, however, you can get the widgets manufactured in Lower Slobobia for $5, well, $5 per widget is going to the Lower Slobobian workers, the shareholders are making $105 per widget instead of $10 per widget. Still, the economy is worse off, for it, yes?

No. Because now they can also sell those widgets for $10 in Lower Slobobia, and make another $5 per widget. And $40 in Upper Slobobia, where the economy is somewhat better...and all that profit is coming back to the shareholders, who are in the America. They decide to take that profit buy another company in Suicidebombostan, which brings more profits back to america, etc.

The big problems actually occur when X-Company decides to sell its shares outside America, not when they decide to manufacture outside America.


Well, thanks, that's a lot simpler. That actually makes it way more sinister than I originally thought. China doesn't allow its population to buy the American widgets after they make them ensuring all the US wealth stays there. Basically China is using their repressive government to force their 1.5 billion population to work ridiculously hard for far less than the work is worth, so they can use the surplus to buy the whole world.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:25 am 
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What does "government spending" get spent on? It goes to encourage consumerism or displace expenses that would otherwise detract from American consumerism. Such a relationship would not exist. Purchasing an import is done with an export. So that relationship could not possibly exist, unless China didn't want our exports and instead wanted to finance our purchase of their exports in exchange for perhaps owning liabilities owed to us from other trading partners. But that's hardly the same thing at all. In fact, it isn't even close.

And that just goes show: how does us having lots of people employed at malls and retailers compensate our trade deficit with China who provides us with tangible goods. Like I posited before, do you see lots of Chinese tourists in our country playing at our golf courses, visiting Six Flags or buying their own goods at our malls and paying the retail overhead?

So, yes, while economic theory dictates that manufacturing be located where it is most effecient, that doesn't mean we get to do nothing in return just because we are less effecient. What that means is we become obsolete. Our service based economy is not exportable ... what part of that is difficult to understand?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:28 am 
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Rafael wrote:
So, yes, while economic theory dictates that manufacturing be located where it is most effecient, that doesn't mean we get to do nothing in return just because we are less effecient. What that means is we become obsolete. Our service based economy is not exportable ... what part of that is difficult to understand?


In a sensible economic environment, this would cause wages in America to decline, which in turn would cause deflation (which is a good thing!)...supply and demand and all that...until it was once again competitive. However, due to government meddling, that cannot happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:31 am 
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Rafael wrote:
So, yes, while economic theory dictates that manufacturing be located where it is most effecient, that doesn't mean we get to do nothing in return just because we are less effecient. What that means is we become obsolete. Our service based economy is not exportable ... what part of that is difficult to understand?


This is ridiculous. No, retail jobs can't be exported, but you can't conflate that to unilaterally say no services can be. Things like consulting or research can definitely be exported. You're essentially stating that whoever does all the manufacturing has all the real wealth and that everything else is meaningless.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:35 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Things like consulting or research can definitely be exported.

Research is America's chief technology export. You think china does any microchip development? Silicon Valley makes a lot of money.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:38 am 
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I didn't say it was. I said our service sector economy is non-exportable for the greater part because it's based on consumerism. Our consumerism, not China's. Do you see a great part of our exportable services (media consulting, for instance) being exported? And do you see it being exported in great enough part to offset the amount of purchasing we do from China?

Let me give you a hint: you don't. Because if that were the case, our current accounts deficit would be gaping enough to drive the sun through.

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Last edited by Rafael on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:38 am 
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Goddamnit people.

Outsourcing is hiring another company to do work you formerly did internally.

Offshoring is sending that work to another country.



Use the terms appropriately, gah!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:39 am 
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Talya wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Things like consulting or research can definitely be exported.
Silicon Valley makes a lot of money.


China's manufactured good industry is worth way more than Silicon Valley.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:44 am 
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Rafael wrote:
China's manufactured good industry is worth way more than Silicon Valley.



China's manufactured goods industry is also a lot more than just Intel.

I believe Intel's profits from chips made in china are higher than china's profits for making those same chips. But as a matter of scale, china makes a lot more chips than just Intel's.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:48 am 
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It would be an accounting nightmare to try to delve into companies that compose the backbone of trade between the US and China, let alone all of them; particularly since so many things are bought with option contracts and the real value of the trade cannot be known until the time it resolves.

However, the state of the current accounts deficit is evidence alone to indicate we do not (and most likely cannot) export commensurate with the amount we import. I'll go out on a limb and say that's the definition (not being sarcastic, since it's not but is very close).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:54 am 
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Rafael wrote:
However, the state of the current accounts deficit is evidence alone to indicate we do not (and most likely cannot) export commensurate with the amount we import. I'll go out on a limb and say that's the definition (not being sarcastic, since it's not but is very close).


And once again, this is a factor of attempted "protectionism" of American wages and the American worker. If you let market forces handle wages, America would quickly become competitive again.

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