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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:44 pm 
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No no no. What she did before she was "saved" doesn't matter. Its all about how good she is now after accepting Jesus as her Lord and personal Savior.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Imagine if a Muslim working at the DMV refused to issue drivers licenses to women because it violated his religious beliefs? I doubt people would be screaming in support of religious freedom nearly so much.

It's not about religious freedom. (She's free to resign if she doesn't want to do her job.) It's about upholding the particular flavor of religious bigotry they agree with.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Imagine if a clerk refused to issue gun permits on religious grounds. Doubly so if said religious grounds were Muslim.

Also, as a sidenote: her clerkin' job (in which she's choosing to simply not perform her duties) pays $80,000 per year. That's insane.


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 Post subject: Re: About bloody time.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:08 pm 
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That woman reminds me of several members of my extended family. Especially the "I've made mistakes in the past, but I've been forgiven" line.

(Referring to an abortion clinic) "Bunch of damned child murderers, they should be put to death."
"Uhm, you HAD an abortion. I remember that happening."
"God understands why I did what I had to do and has forgiven me."
"How do you know God hasn't forgiven them, either?"
"They're not Catholic, they're damned eternally."


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:09 am 
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Müs wrote:
No no no. What she did before she was "saved" doesn't matter. Its all about how good she is now after accepting Jesus as her Lord and personal Savior.


This is true - but it only applies to what happens after you die. It doesn't mean you get a free pass here on earth.

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That woman reminds me of several members of my extended family. Especially the "I've made mistakes in the past, but I've been forgiven" line.

(Referring to an abortion clinic) "Bunch of damned child murderers, they should be put to death."
"Uhm, you HAD an abortion. I remember that happening."
"God understands why I did what I had to do and has forgiven me."
"How do you know God hasn't forgiven them, either?"
"They're not Catholic, they're damned eternally."


Your extended family does not seem to have read the Rman Catholic teaching on that issue very carefully.

In any case, there's several problems here. One is quite simple, and that's the simple fact that an elected (or appointed, for that matter) official cannot refuse to do their job for religious reasons. Period. They also can't defy court orders. The proper thing for her to do is resign, but she probably has no idea what do with herself after that, either for income or otherwise, and she was elected to her mother's position. I doubt she's ever been seriously contested in an election (because no one is going to run agains her since A) she's the democrat in coal mining union country and B) that just wouldn't be nice. You know Miss Davis's mama had the job before her!) and has only ever seen it as a formality. The idea that she might ever find herself out of office has never occurred to her.

This is exacerbated by the combination of the recency of her discovery of faith - she probably hasn't learned much - and the nature of the church she most likely goes to. I don't know for sure obviously, but if experience is any guide there is probably a lot of emphaisis on "gittin' folks SAVED!" and not a whole lot after that. Most likely, she has not really learned much of anything after that, which might have taught her a little bit about judging other people, rendering unto Caseser that which is Caser's and the authorities appointed over you (such as those mean ol' courts). Fundamentally, this goes to a combination of evangelical churches run by poorly educated fat guys sweating through their button-down shirt armpits and the underlying weakness of evangelical theology that teaches "Faith alone" salvation, but then tries to turn it into works-based legalism. When you mix that with a combination of "poorly-educated, rural, and largely **** on by everyone"

one of which is that this lady is in this job because Mama had that job, and "you just don't run against Miss Davis, y'here?" It's a crushingly poor part of the country that has all the problems of the inner city, but gets none of the attention.

Because these people are, generally, crushingly poor and the only jobs that pay decently ususally involve coal, or joining the military, they tend to be registered Democrat becuase they still think that's the party of unions and workers. The Democrats though, don't give a flying ****, which turns them into blue-og democrats who vote Republican because all they hear from Democrats is how they're racist and mine that filthy coal.

These people represent an incredible resource for Democrats. They're whites that vote democrat locally and add to total union numbers, but because they're rural and don't really matter in swing states the Democrats and liberals that ostensibly care about the poor can write them off as "racist rednecks" or whatever. In this particular case, it allows them to associate "white" with "homophobic" to divert attention away from just how many Democractic minority liberal voters there are that are just as homophobic.

In that respect, this lady is a bonanza for the Democrats. She's everything they could hope for. She creates a shitstorm that allows them to finger-point at rural whites and dismiss them as homophobes and bigots to their base that already thought that anyhow, while conveniently ignoring that they represent exactly the kind of poor people with little opportunity and no education that Democrats and liberals ostensibly claim to care about. The fact that she's an elected Democrat is being carefully avoided already, unlike when an elected Republican does something idiotic.

I'm pretty sure that she's far from the only Evangelical county clerk out there, but the only one so amazingly stupid as to think she can get away with this. The others have all done what they were supposed to do. That won't stop those for whom its convenient from making stupid generalizations on this basis nor will it result in the left confronting the fact that this woman is not some amalgamation of everything on the right - she's fundamentally a liberal/moderate that happens to be a social conservative on this one particular issue. Instead they're jumping up and down with glee that they get to rant about "homophobia" some more among people they have no intention of trying to make any less homophobic.

Because telling people they're terrible homophobe stupid racists isn't the mark of someone that wants to change minds; it's the mark of someone that wants jews homophobe stupid racists to blame things on. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around here. Thankfully her deputy clerks seem to know what side their bread is buttered on so the nice lesbian couple on TV can at least stop being the ping-pong ball for this shitshow.

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 Post subject: Re: About bloody time.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:57 am 
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Was that performance art?


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 Post subject: Re: About bloody time.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:20 pm 
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I'm going to leave this here so you guys can actually educate yourself on the law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... 1454859111

She does have standing for what she's doing. A federal judge got involved which complicated things, but this will be worked out so she doesn't have to violate her conscience and people can still get their marriage licenses.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:47 am 
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Jhorra wrote:
I'm going to leave this here so you guys can actually educate yourself on the law.

I mostly agree with Prof. Volokh's analysis in that article, but I think he's missing one crucial point that, in my view, leads to a different ultimate conclusion. It's true that accommodating Davis' beliefs via the requested relief would only impose a relatively minimal administrative burden, and the "compelling government interest" in ensuring that all eligible people can get their marriage licenses would still be served. However, there is also a "compelling government interest" in ensuring that government officials, when acting in their official capacity, treat all similarly-situated people equally and not discriminate against certain groups. That's particularly true when their official capacity involves interfacing with the public. If the marriage license issued to a gay couple differs from the marriage license issued to a hetero couple, or if the licenses issued in one county differ from the licenses issued in another county - in each case to accommodate a sense of moral opprobrium toward gay couples on the part of the government official issuing the licenses - that's a pretty in-your-face example of disparate treatment by someone who is acting/speaking on behalf of the government. Given that factor, which Volokh didn't really account for, I don't think Davis should be given anything like the accommodation she's requesting or the one Volokh suggested.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Here's another problem with opposing what she's doing. If you support state marijuana laws or sanctuary cities you are in support of the actions she is taking. Violating federal law and obeying state law.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Jhorra wrote:
Here's another problem with opposing what she's doing. If you support state marijuana laws or sanctuary cities you are in support of the actions she is taking. Violating federal law and obeying state law.


These situations are not what's going on here. She isn't obeying any Kentucky law, and there isn't any Federal law requiring her to issue them. Any Kentucky law that may have prohibited issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples has been vacated by the USSC decision on the matter. That is not true of sanctuary city laws, or marijuana laws - neither has been found unConstitutional and is not likely to be so found any time soon.

Furthermore, as for sanctuary city laws those laws just prohibit local law enforcement from turning over illegal aliens to Federal agencies, and there is no law requiring they do that in the first place. As a general rule, state/local agencies don't enforce Federal law and Federal agencies don't enforce State laws; there are exceptions but State and Federal agencies generally cooperate to assist in enforcing each other's laws; they aren't required to do so. Again, the situation is not analagous.

RD also brings up the question of whether giving her an accommodation results in disparate treatment or discrimination against a third party.

As to the accommodation, she's an elected official, not an employee in the traditional sense and I don't know that there's a court case testing whether that law applies to elected officials or not. I can tell you that military personnel have far less protection under that law than traditional employees, and they aren't elected, so I don't think an elected official can claim very much protection under it. Before you start telling people to "Educate themselves on the law" learn something about it, and make sure the analogy you're making actually makes sense - so far that's at least 3 ways in doesn't fit.

Finally, the matter of same-sex marriage protections pertains pretty clearly to 1st and 14th amendment concerns as well as possibly some others, and that case is much harder to make for either marijuana or sanctuary city laws, so no, just because someone supports state law over Federal in one instance does not mean they do so in another - disregarding that we're talking about case law at the Federal level in this matter as opposed to statutory in others. You don't get to come in here and tell people "well, if you think x then you must think y".

Oh, and as for the stupid Scully meme, UFOs are a question of fact and same-sex marriage is a question of morality and rights. The position of "elected officials should do their jobs regardless of their personal beliefs" does not need help from stupid memes made by internet slacktivists.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Oh, and as for the stupid Scully meme, UFOs are a question of fact and same-sex marriage is a question of morality and rights. The position of "elected officials should do their jobs regardless of their personal beliefs" does not need help from stupid memes made by internet slacktivists.

Wow, congrats, you've argued on the internet against a joke, big man! Way to win!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Jhorra wrote:
Here's another problem with opposing what she's doing. If you support state marijuana laws or sanctuary cities you are in support of the actions she is taking. Violating federal law and obeying state law.


These situations are not what's going on here. She isn't obeying any Kentucky law, and there isn't any Federal law requiring her to issue them. Any Kentucky law that may have prohibited issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples has been vacated by the USSC decision on the matter. That is not true of sanctuary city laws, or marijuana laws - neither has been found unConstitutional and is not likely to be so found any time soon.

Furthermore, as for sanctuary city laws those laws just prohibit local law enforcement from turning over illegal aliens to Federal agencies, and there is no law requiring they do that in the first place. As a general rule, state/local agencies don't enforce Federal law and Federal agencies don't enforce State laws; there are exceptions but State and Federal agencies generally cooperate to assist in enforcing each other's laws; they aren't required to do so. Again, the situation is not analagous.

RD also brings up the question of whether giving her an accommodation results in disparate treatment or discrimination against a third party.

As to the accommodation, she's an elected official, not an employee in the traditional sense and I don't know that there's a court case testing whether that law applies to elected officials or not. I can tell you that military personnel have far less protection under that law than traditional employees, and they aren't elected, so I don't think an elected official can claim very much protection under it. Before you start telling people to "Educate themselves on the law" learn something about it, and make sure the analogy you're making actually makes sense - so far that's at least 3 ways in doesn't fit.

Finally, the matter of same-sex marriage protections pertains pretty clearly to 1st and 14th amendment concerns as well as possibly some others, and that case is much harder to make for either marijuana or sanctuary city laws, so no, just because someone supports state law over Federal in one instance does not mean they do so in another - disregarding that we're talking about case law at the Federal level in this matter as opposed to statutory in others. You don't get to come in here and tell people "well, if you think x then you must think y".

Oh, and as for the stupid Scully meme, UFOs are a question of fact and same-sex marriage is a question of morality and rights. The position of "elected officials should do their jobs regardless of their personal beliefs" does not need help from stupid memes made by internet slacktivists.


He does address whether elected officials are covered in article.
Article wrote:
First, a technical but important legal point: Title VII expressly excludes elected officials. But Kentucky, like about 20 other states, has a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) statute that requires government agencies to exempt religious objectors from generally applicable laws, unless denying the exemption is the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest. The federal government also has a RFRA, which may apply to federal court orders issued to state elected officials.

Such RFRAs are narrower than Title VII (they apply only to the government) but also broader (they apply not just to employment but to all government action). Nothing in them exempts accommodation claims by elected officials. Moreover, the 1963-90 Free Exercise Clause rules that the RFRAs were meant to restore included protections for elected officials, see McDaniel v. Paty (1978); though McDaniel involved a rule that discriminated against religious practice, the plurality opinion treated it as a standard religious exemption request.


I used the term law as a short way of saying it. I realize there's no specific federal law saying it's legal, the supreme court simply ruled that's it's illegal to not issue them because they are gay. You're nitpicking the details of what I said when the intent is clearly the same. She's abiding by state law that allows her to abstain from issuing them. A simple solution in this situation will be to allow them to be issued without her name on them. This allows her to not violate her conscience and still have all laws followed.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:40 pm 
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And before you say it, I realize that the portion of the article I quoted doesn't say exactly what I'm saying. I'm just showing that he does address it. In the end his assessment is that this specific circumstance is a somewhat gray area.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:10 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Oh, and as for the stupid Scully meme, UFOs are a question of fact and same-sex marriage is a question of morality and rights. The position of "elected officials should do their jobs regardless of their personal beliefs" does not need help from stupid memes made by internet slacktivists.

Wow, congrats, you've argued on the internet against a joke, big man! Way to win!


Yes, yes, it's a terrible reflection on my character that I spent 2 lines pointing out that you posted a stupid joke that made you feel superior, big man. Then again, that joke is really about "look how much better I am than the stupid redneck lady", so maybe the reaction isn't unexpected.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:27 am 
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Jhorra wrote:
I used the term law as a short way of saying it. I realize there's no specific federal law saying it's legal, the supreme court simply ruled that's it's illegal to not issue them because they are gay. You're nitpicking the details of what I said when the intent is clearly the same. She's abiding by state law that allows her to abstain from issuing them. A simple solution in this situation will be to allow them to be issued without her name on them. This allows her to not violate her conscience and still have all laws followed.


In fact, it is NOT the same intent at all. The other state laws you cited - marijuana and sanctuary cities - involve the state simply not prohibiting the same things the Federal government prohibits and/or not assisting the Federal government. States are not required to mirror the Federal law in most cases, nor are they required to assist in enforcing Federal laws - this is why the Federal government generally uses financial incentives to get comparable laws and standards; it lacks the authority to require them.

In this case, it is a matter of someone actively defying a Federal court ruling, which is not a nitpick difference - she isn't abiding by that State law, because the State law doesn't pertain to her actions - it pertains to the actions of the authority for creating an exemption for her, which is the State legislature. There's nothing stopping the legislature from doing precisely this, but in the meantime she has a duty to comply with the court order.

The bottom line is that you came in here wanting to tell everyone they had to support what she was doing because marijuana, and that isn't the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:57 pm 
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I didn't tell anyone they had to support anything. That's you putting intent into my words. She isn't actively defying anything. As has happened, the state is now issuing the licenses without her name on it. If everyone hadn't gotten involved because this is a hot button issue this likely would have already happened and no one would care or be the wiser.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:58 pm 
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I still say you're nitpicking. They are the same basic concept. State officials going against federal law/ruling/whatever else you want to call it.


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