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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Keeping an innocent man in prison for 35 years is no more correctable than executing him. It is no less a miscarriage of justice, or whatever else you want to call it.


Sure it's correctable. You can let him out of prison.

Now I'll grant you, that you've pretty much completely **** the guy out of the majority of his life, but there is still life left that he's now free to do with as he pleases.

I agree that it's not less a miscarriage of justice.


Nothing you just posted indicates why that "corrects" it. Letting him out does not return the 35 years to him.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Sure, you can't undo those 35 years. But you can make sure the rest of those years are his.

Sounds like the guy has his head screwed on straight too. Nice article about him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/17/flo ... index.html


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Nothing you just posted indicates why that "corrects" it. Letting him out does not return the 35 years to him.



But it's better than having taken it all from him.

And personally, I'd rather be alive in prison, than dead. There's enjoyment to be found in life in any situation.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:07 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
So revenge should be the standard? If that is the case why don't we allow the victims to determine sentences?


That's what we call a strawman. "Retribution is a part of justice" is not the same thing as "Revenge is the standard" and we don't let the victim determine it because they aren't dispassionate about how much and what kind is to be administered.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Sure, you can't undo those 35 years. But you can make sure the rest of those years are his.

Sounds like the guy has his head screwed on straight too. Nice article about him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/17/flo ... index.html


I didn't say you couldn't give him the rest of his life back. The point is, you cannot undo the years taken. What if someone was exonerated and released the day before his death? "Oh, at least you got the rest of your life back!" Not trying to be a smartass, but think about it critically.

As for life in prison, waiting to die ain't living.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Sure, you can't undo those 35 years. But you can make sure the rest of those years are his.

Sounds like the guy has his head screwed on straight too. Nice article about him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/17/flo ... index.html


I didn't say you couldn't give him the rest of his life back. The point is, you cannot undo the years taken. What if someone was exonerated and released the day before his death? "Oh, at least you got the rest of your life back!" Not trying to be a smartass, but think about it critically.

As for life in prison, waiting to die ain't living.


Sure, and I agree with you as far as you go. However, the difference is that with the death penalty, we are artificially shortening the time in which it's possible to "correct" our mistake. Which is above and beyond the cost difference.

In my mind, there really just isn't any good justification for the death penalty. Doesn't mean there aren't some folks that need killing, just that the number is too small to be worth the risks and costs.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Except putting somenoe behind bars (instead of on death row) doesn't "lengthen" the time to correct the mistake. The mistake is the false conviction, not the serving of the sentence.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:45 pm 
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And a reason to enforce the death penalty...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:47 pm 
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We can't be sure everyone we convict is truly guilty. Mistakes will undoubtedly happen, and it's a tragedy when it does. It is an even greater tragedy when that conviction is for the death penalty. At the same time, there are also people who deserve to die. Allowing them to live is just as great a tragedy as sentencing an innocent man to fry.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
At the same time, there are also people who deserve to die. Allowing them to live is just as great a tragedy as sentencing an innocent man to fry.


I disagree completely. "Allowing a guilty person to live" in this context means putting them into a high security prison where they will never see daylight and never do any harm to any person - there is a similar argument here with putting terrorists in maximum security prisons, whether you agree with that or not. Just look at the statistics of prisoners who have escaped from maximum security prisons.

But more important is the concept of taking an innocent life and snuffing it out and then trying to act "tough and impartial", trying to justify a competent "system" that would do such a thing, and then actually feeling like you would look weak if you dare question such a system because you think your dick might shrink.

How about you support a system that doesn't arbitrarily snuff out an innocent life in defense of some bravado unsupported absolutist aggressive ideology that knowingly and willing ignores all the flaws of human nature and judgment all to spark your ego and detached internet-age-anonymity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and I know it's completely unprovable through writing, but I also know it's absolutely true - the only way you'll truly understand this concept, if you lack all empathy, is if you directly experience this yourself, which is of course why I wish these horrors on many of you. Sorry, but it's the only way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Perhaps if you weren't so focused on the perceived size of my dick, you would have taken the time to actually think about the last part of my post. I am willing to acknowledge that innocent men have been sent to an undeserved fate (be that death, or the life in prison that you propose). Meanwhile, you're unwilling to consider the idea that some people genuinely deserve death. Somehow I'm the one who's an absolutist? I suppose that makes sense, if one's penis is so hard over banning the death penalty that it's deprived blood flow to the brain.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:41 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Perhaps if you weren't so focused on the perceived size of my dick, you would have taken the time to actually think about the last part of my post. I am willing to acknowledge that innocent men have been sent to an undeserved fate (be that death, or the life in prison that you propose). Meanwhile, you're unwilling to consider the idea that some people genuinely deserve death. Somehow I'm the one who's an absolutist? I suppose that makes sense, if one's penis is so hard over banning the death penalty that it's deprived blood flow to the brain.


He's also considering it "not doing harm" for that person to indirectly force money from my pocket to pay for their three hots and a cot.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:26 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Keeping an innocent man in prison for 35 years is no more correctable than executing him. It is no less a miscarriage of justice, or whatever else you want to call it.


At least he's alive. If killing an innocent person deserves death, then we support a system that kills innocent people, we all deserve death. The justice system should be protecting the innocent, I would prefer to pay a little more to keep them behind bars forever, than have my government kill it's citizens on my behalf. Yes, in a perfect would I would prefer the death penalty if there were no chance of killing innocent people.

After reading some of the later posts, some undoubtedly deserve death. While some might ask one to consider the injustice to the family left behind after such a tragedy, I would ask them to consider the families left behind of one condemned wrongly. I wouldn't say failure to euthanize them was a tragedy, perhaps it could be limited to confessed killers. I just prefer to want to play it safe to protect the innocent. I would consider one wrongful DP to many. Yes, were my family or etc murdered by some degenerate, I would probably want them dead and consider doing it myself and accept the consequences depending on the circumstances. So, justice by death penalty isn't so woefully viewed by me, but I won't accept the risks on behalf of other people.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:37 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
We can't be sure everyone we convict is truly guilty. Mistakes will undoubtedly happen, and it's a tragedy when it does.


I agree with this.

Quote:
It is an even greater tragedy when that conviction is for the death penalty.


I agree with this as well.

Quote:
At the same time, there are also people who deserve to die.


There are people that, given a certain set of accepted facts, certainly qualify. But who am I to actually pull the trigger?

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Allowing them to live is just as great a tragedy as sentencing an innocent man to fry.


This I absolutely disagree with. We can lock away a horrible criminal for the remainder of their life, let them live it out in a cell, and it's no tragedy at all.

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