The Glade 4.0

That's an interesting perspective from an ex-Meth user.

One assumes then that there wasn't anyone there to help you get over your addiction?

His impending daughter.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Countries that treat addiction as a public health issue, and respond accordingly, generally have to spend significantly less overall on those health issues.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That's a false dilemma because they receive treatment here, just not "full treatment".

The other option is to give them no help at all. I'm not sure how I feel on the issue other than the legalization aspect.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

As Mus said.. Realizing I was about to be a father made me realize that I needed to grow the hell up and stop risking my life when someone else was going to need me to be alive to raise them.

When the realization finally sank in about a month before my daughter was born; I flushed about $200 worth of stuff down the drain and cut all of the people out my life who used the hard drugs. I helped me, no one else.

And I have not looked back since. I regularly review my life and make sure anyone who uses anything heavier than either alcohol or pot has no influence on my personal life.

I personally think it is my "**** the addicts" outlook that prevents me from having any relapses.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

And the countries that execute drug users spend even less...

But then, according to the statistics I have recently been reading, 40% to 60% of the overall health costs in this country are due to modifiable personal behavior. Add in that currently 40% of the children in the US are currently "morbidly obese" and the health costs/risks associated with that behavior does not generally manifest until they are adults, there is absolutely nothing currently being considered in the health care bills that will even begin to offset those costs in 10 years, much less save money.

Look, let's assume as a given that treatment programs save taxpayer dollars. Let's further assume that educational pamphlets function similarly to treatment programs, thus saving taxpayer dollars.

If you then acknowledge the fact that the government is disseminating information about Class I drugs, which are thereby wholly and totally illegal and have zero medicinal use, there is literally no coherent moral justification for the pamphlets. "Saving taxpayer dollars overall" cannot morally overcome "this drug is so **** bad for you we banned it in all 50 states, territories, and protectorates including for any medicinal use." You cannot reconcile those two with any moral consistency.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Not at all. I gave due credence to what Michael addressed, which was young people already using heroin who are salvageable. What I pointed out was that any savings in that regard are just as easily countered by someone who becomes addicted by now thinking that using heroin is "okay" (meaning okay in their mind when they didn't before; let's dispense with the philosophizing over what "okay" is) when they didn't before. Michael didn't address that at all, so there is no way I could have been saying he didn't know what he was talkign about.

Way to try to bait the two of us into an argument instead of making your own point though.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You're making the assumption that your point isn't already taken into account by his statement that these programs save money.

And again, as Corolinth and I have now both pointed out, saving money is irrelevant given the overall picture.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Yes, I am. That's a perfectly safe assumption since there is no indication that he is taking it into account; if he's claiming that even accounting for my point there is a net savings he needs to explicitly address it.

Is there some problem with assuming someone isn't talking about a thing when they don't mention it?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Indeed. The government publishing information about how to break its own laws is either the height of hypocrisy, or else a very disturbing trap.

On a philosophical level, I'm perfectly fine with the concept of people breaking laws. Some laws are, to put it bluntly, stupid. They exist solely to keep the unwashed masses in line, and are nothing more than a nuisance to anyone with higher brain functions. However, it is the responsibility of the person breaking the law to do it with subtlety, and break the law in a manner that only effects them. Laws are still laws, and should still be enforced evenly.

This coddling of drug addicts and using tax dollars to take care of them is, to be quite honest, a gross injustice to everyone who actually obeys the law and refrains from using those substances. It's also rather unfair to criminals who are guilty of other crimes, not that I expect anyone to care about them. We have allowed our sympathy to override our good judgement. The use of Type 1 controlled substances is illegal, and yet people who use them repeatedly get "help." What about the people who rob cars repeatedly? What about the people who commit murder repeatedly? Those people just go back to jail, yet a drug addict is placed in rehab.

Now we're taking it a step further. The use of heroin is illegal, but we're going to tell you how to use it safely. We've gone from "helping" to "facilitating." Alternatively, these pamphlets exist to draw people into drug use in order to fill up our jails and rehab clinics. Neither scenario is appropriate for the government, which is supposed to be fairly enforcing the law.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

DE's points come as much as anything from a law enforcement side where you see what addiction has done to the weak. At least, they match the opinions of a few officers I've chatted with over time. Law enforcement sees the end product, they deal with the clean-up when someone has overdosed, or done something equally stupid that ends their life or others. Addicts ending themselves is never a pretty sight. I understand DE's viewpoints and don't think he dismissed my comments out of hand. He has justification for his views.

I work in the field of treatment. I see addicts at all stages. Well, I talk to them occasionally, and the ones I meet are usually already in recovery. Most of them have pretty scary horror stories. Most of them have Hepatitis C too. Tuberculosis is common as well.

I work for the State of California, at the Department that licenses, certifies and oversees alcohol and other drug treatment and recovery facilities. Methadone clinics are among the facilities we license. I worked on the in-house side of licensing those clinics for about four years. Our Director is a recovering alcoholic, she's been clean and sober over 20 years. The Director before her was a heroin addict early in her adult life. Through a methadone progam she recovered and has gone on to lead a fairly decent life.

Methadone is one of the few valid treatments for Heroin addiction. There are people in California who have been undergoing Methadone treatment for over 30 years. Some people never can kick the addiction but they can deal with the replacement addiction.

For those who don't know what methadone does, and I know several of you do, methadone connects to the receptors in your brain (and probably other parts of your nervous system, not sure about that) that heroin and other opiates use to make you feel so omg fantastically good - the first time, and occasionally dangerous highs after that. Mostly you chase the memory of the first times. After awhile, by the time you get truly addicted, you are just trying to keep from feeling bad.

While you can get high with too much methadone, the proper dose just keeps your cravings in check and lets you go on about your day without needing a fix. Methadone is longer lasting than heroin, lasting a little over a day. Heroin has a much lower duration, some addicts are shooting up every two or three hours, but they probably aren't going to last much longer when they get to that frequency.

Methadone is not the only drug used to treat opiate addiction, but it is by far the most popular one. The biggest drawback to methadone is that it is more addictive than heroin. Not all opiates are created equal.

Buprenorphine is also used, google it. It is more expensive than methadone, but it lasts longer and has a very low addiction rate. It is usually used for the people who are within their first two or three years of addiction, past that it doesn't work as well.

Per UCLA's research, every dollar spent on treatment for the addicted creates seven dollars in various savings - http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/515638/ - yet drug treatment programs are usually among the first cut in a budget crunch. Drug treatment programs are vilified for the reasons you've seen in this thread. People see drug addicts as the sewage of humanity. You would be surprised how many talented people you know and pay money to see perform are or were drug addicts. Robert Downey, Jr. had a hell of a time with drugs, check the public record. Jerry Garcia died of a heroin overdose one of his friends snuck into the recovery home he was staying in, found with a needle sticking in him. Those two just popped into my head. Shall we mention Rush Limbaugh's experience as a drug addict? Is Rush the human sewage you think of when you think of drug addicts?

I haven't seen the pamphlets referenced earlier, but the videos and other pamphlets I have seen on safe usage usually deal with this is the way to do it right, and if you don't OMFG that could happen. Scare them with AIDS and other infections, show how abscesses happen from inter-muscular usage. Those types of pamphlets are meant as much as scare tactics and encouragement to get into treatment as they are to show people the least dangerous way to do heroin.

Scared straight doesn't work with that high a percentage of people, most are ten feet tall and bulletproof until the morning they wake up and realize they are addicted and can't function without their morning hit, and they don't have anything to take the edge off.

As I am sure Diamondeye is aware of, over 80% of the people arrested for anything are either high on drugs or alcohol. Most are doing their crimes to support their habits in one way or another.

Darkseige, I admire you my friend. I walked away from alcohol when I knew it was killing me. I used pretty much the same technique. I made new friends who didn't drink, I was having fun with them and the booze never came out. My old friends weren't interested in spending time with me unless I came to my senses and started drinking with them again.

You walked away from Methamphetamine, cold turkey, dude that is truly amazing. It is a much harder addiction to kick, very few people can do it, you sir have amazing willpower. Your daughter is your guardian angel, her imminent presence inspired you to do something many people in the substance abuse field think isn't just hard, they think it is impossible. I've read a few stories like yours so I can believe it is possible, but extremely rare.

Hardening your heart to the wild pack you left behind is a survival technique. I can understand how you feel the need to shut them from your life. I am not encouraging you to let them back in. Keep considering them zombies spreading a deadly infection. Whatever works for you.

Know that not one in 10,000 could do what you did. That is why treatment centers and those stupid pamphlets are needed. Without help, the fools and losers you left behind have no chance at all.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

This brought a tear to my eye. Very well said, and ds very much deserves to hear it.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Thank you sir. I will take your words into consideration I honestly figured myself to be soft, so if I can manage it.. anyone who wants to do it should have no problem.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

You may be chubby, but you have the resolve and willpower of a Titan.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

DS:

All that aside, as you well know, don't even begin to believe that your tremendous accomplishment can be repeated if you ever get near the glass cock again!

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Oh good lord no. That is why I cut those people out of my life. I know me... if I had to try it again; I do not know if I could. Best not to be surrounded by the temptation.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Well, maybe that's why it costs us so much.



And that has costs as well, costs that are a lot higher than actually helping these people. We like to look at addicts and say "you, you are a failed and bad person, you should get no help". But we are still going to pay for it. Why not pay to help people get past their addictions? Not only do you do some good, you also wind up paying less overall in the long run. It's a win-win.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Or maybe not ... it'd be pretty quick and easy to shoot them in the head. I'm not saying I support that, but your point has no substance.



No, we're not going to still pay for it, not based premise of "giving them no help at all." If by incidental costs society incurs because of how medical treatment is administered and paid for, I'm talking about restructuring it so they don't get help for actions they took to inflict upon themselves. Basically, your point is invalid because you're saying "But we have to pay to give them help" when the original idea postured was "If we don't give them any help, we would pay dramatically less."

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

In response to Michael, (not quoting since it's so lengthy and not a point-by-point response):

I agree with everything you've said. In response to this particular pamphlet however, I don't think that it falls into the category of effective treatment because it creates a real risk of encouraging addiction in the first place by creating the appearance of government approcal. It also creates the appearance (especially in the mind of someone who lacks critical thinking skills or wants to believe something) tht injecting Heroin can be done safely. What it really does is explain a safe injection procedure; this does not in any way make the substance inside the syringe safe.

I think this particular pamphlet is ill-advised and likely to be counter-productive. I am not averse to pamphlets in general, treatment programs, or prevention programs. I just do not see this pamphlet, even if it does contain a "where to get help" message, as more than a break-even proposition in terms of aggregate numbers of addicts. Insofar as tax dollars are concerned that makes it a net loss, since you can break even for free. I also consider it worse to cause a person who has not already tried drugs to think it's "okay" and then does so, than to fail to get a treatment message to someone who chose to try them on their own.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."