The Glade 4.0

A year.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Luke Skywalker demonstrated the ability to master flying a sophisticated hyperspace-capable starfighter and a weapon system he'd never used before (proton torpedos) with zero experience in type, and no more than maybe a few hours to get in a quick check-ride in a simulator off-screen on Yavin.

He proceeded to then evade, in tight quarters, three pursuing TIE fighters, while attempting a precision bomb run that experienced pilots believed "impossible even for a computer". To be fair, the last-minute appearance of the Millenium Falcon saved him, but even prior to that Vader - previously the (arguably) best pilot in the galaxy and strongest Force-sensitive ever to live experienced extreme difficulty in scoring a hit despite being A) on his six B) at close range C) having 2 wingmen and no other pressure or distractions prior to the Falcon's appearance D) extremely limited maneuvering room for the X-wing which E) was trying to line up a torpedo launch.

I'm pretty sure that the hour or so of **** around with a lightsaber en route to Alderaan isn't the deciding factor, so yeah we've seen it before - just not in a lightsaber fight. Furthermore, Kylo Ren expected to mainly fight blaster-weilding opponents, not opposing Jedi since there were few or none. He demonstrates extreme skill in capturing blaster bolts. Its not surprising that lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat is a weak area of his.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Indeed. Bolwing up a massive battle station while being attacked by an enemy starfighter piloted by a powerful Sith Lord is at least as "MAry Sue-ish" as anything Rey did.

Part of the problem is the use of the term "Mary Sue". People should basically never use this term; it mainly means characters that are a fan-fic author avatar inserted so someone can feel awesome amid their favorite series characters. Series-creater characters are never "Mary Sues".

A great deal of this is simply looking for a reason to complain.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Luke flew his T-16 back home all the time; it's presented as an analogous situation in the film even if you ignore the legends canon that indicated that the X-Wing's proper name is the T-65 because they're both Incom designs and share a lot of similarity in controls and cockpit layout. Also, remember that Lucas was all about car culture -- this is meant to echo a teenager taking his small-town street racing experience with his own hot rod and stepping up to the big race, not leveraging tractor-driving experience to magically pilot a jet fighter. As for hyperspace -- R2 did all the astrogation, that's what astromechs are there for.

If you go back and watch the trench run, and think about it a bit... I think it's fair to suggest that there wasn't much evading to go on in the first place. The wingmen are providing cover by hanging back far enough to engage any opposition that tries to tail the leader directly; that turns out to be a pretty significant distance, to the point where the TIEs have to play catch-up to be in range of Luke, rather than trying to get a solid shot that whole time. To illustrate how big a distance it is, whenever Biggs, Wedge, or Red Leaders' wingmen's X-Wings are shown in the trench, Luke or Red Leader are never even close enough to see. When Vader kills Biggs and declares he's on the leader, the TIEs are shown from behind, with no X-Wing in sight. Luke doesn't evade fire, he stalls it with the bold decision to go in full throttle in order to do the X-Wing's best to outrun the TIEs for as long as possible. Again, this is racing, not dogfighting.

Finally, I find your argument about Kylo Ren preparing for blaster fire instead of lightsaber combat to be lacking... because he does a pretty shitty job of that, too, when the time comes and somebody actually shoots AT him -- with a lightsaber in hand, no less.


Are you suggesting that Abrams didn't grow up as a massive fan-boy of Star Wars as a kid? This is officially sanctioned big-budget fan fiction, Mary Sue is completely on the table from the literalist definition.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Jedi masters (Order 66, anyone?) and General Grevious were killed by blaster fire. It can happen.

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When he's underwater does he get wet? Or does the water get him instead?

Remember a bowcaster does not shoot blaster bolts though they appear similar.

According to myriad sources that are no longer canon.

The same one that explained the fact that not everybody in the galaxy uses them by suggesting that it requires Wookiee-level strength to wield one.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Actually it appears Kylo Ren's preferred method of stopping blaster bolts does not involve his lightsaber, but rather freezing them in mid-air - which I didn't really like that much.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Actually no, it isn't presented as an analogous situation in the film. The whomp rat is presented as a same-sized target, and the entire exchange could be just as much youthful exuberance and overconfidence on Luke's part as it does any relevant experience. What Lucas was "into" really is entirely irrelevant, as is what it's supposed to represent. What we SEE on screen is a kid who's flown a Cessna and you arguing that he can therefore fly an F-15 and it has nothing to do with him being a force sensitive and everything to do with his teenage experience. Granted, the Boeing is not made by Cessna, but they both have altimeters so it must be the same.

This is, of course, all ignoring the fact that whomp rats do not **** shoot back. This is Luke's first time flying against emeny pilots, or under fire in the air at all as far as we know. Being under fire is significant for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.



If I go back and watch the trench run a bit and think about it - which I have, extensively - I think you are not paying much attention. Yes, the wingmen are hanging back; the X-wings use flights of 3 and the leader attacks while his wingmen cover him - it's Japanese WWII tactics, or Soviet tactics as opposed to 2-plane sections in Western air forces. IT is not racing because people do not SHOOT AT YOU in races.

The problem is they are IN A TRENCH so the TIEs can drop in behind and kill all of them. As for the idea that he is not dodging, that's blatantly wrong - he is all over the place, and Vader has significant difficulty locking onto him with his targeter. He doesn't successfully lock until the exact moment the Falcon shows up - much longer than it took against the other ships.

This is due to Luke's force sensitivity - the same Force sensitivity Ren has, which accounts for the Mary Sue aspects people are complaining about.

The trench is wide enough for 2 ships abreast, maybe 3, so SOME maneuvering is both possible and evident. If you actually think it isn't, you're either not paying attention or just coming up with excuses to claim Luke is different than Ren because reasons.



Does he now?

Well, he seems to do just fine against a surprise blaster shot in the opening scenes.. what's different in the later one?

Aside from the fact that it's a bowcaster- and no, "Canon" doesn't matter; there's nothing in canon that contradicts bowcasters being different - there's the fact that Ren just KILLED HIS FATHER.

Luke got hit in the hand in ROTJ when distracted - it's quite believable that Chewbacca could slip a shot in while Ren was distracted. He has obvious problems with emotional control.



I don't care if he did or not. If it's officially sanctioned, it's not "Mary Sue".

You know why? Because YOU, and the rest of the fanbase, is not the creator either, and passing whatever arbitrary threshold exists in your mind is pretty much totally irrelevant. This movie is now canon. There are no Mary Sues in canon, ever. Pretty much ALL OF US grew up massive SW fan-boys or fan-girls; just because Abrams got to direct a movie and you're determined to be a grouch doesn't make him wrong.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

To cock one. Not to fire one.

Furthermore, there's nothing in any of the earlier movies that contradict those sources on the nature of a bowcaster so - it does not shoot blaster bolts, period.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

OK, so, am I the only person who finds it odd that Han Solo's son's name in the film is Ben, which is the real name of Harrison Ford's son? I kept thinking during the movie, 'Ben? He's a chef over in Culver City, not a mopey kid with father issues.'

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

So, here's some things to chew on about Rey and "sudden out of nowhere" proficiencies and tapping into the Force:

"Still, there's something familiar about this place." -Luke on Dagobah, a place he's *NEVER* been to. Nothing on Tattooine (which Luke had never left before Obi-Wan) is remotely like anything in Dagobah.

"This one a long time have I watched." -Yoda, who has not left Dagobah since going into hiding.

Jedi masters can influence others from great distances. Possibly even imprint suggestions subconsciously.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

I just assumed he was named after Ben Kenobi.

This. I didn't even know his real son's name.

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"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian

This as well.

Though, it doesn't make *too* much sense since Leia never even met Obi Wan and Han knew him for a total of ~3 hours. I just assume Leia knew what Obi Wan meant to both her father and to Luke, and that Han appreciated what Obi Wan did to sacrifice himself for their "escape."

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

Funny, I never made the Obi-Wan connection!

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

Did you miss Yoda's voice when Rey touched Anakin's Lightsaber for the first time?

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Rey is Yoda's lovechild -- confirmed!

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

They do on Tatooine. Sand people shot at the pod racers. We know they were pod racers because Anakin said "now THIS is pod racing".

That's true, but I'm pretty sure Luke has no known history of pod racing, and in the real life racing Kaffis is claiming the trench run is analogous to, people most certainly do not shoot at you.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

No, they just run you off the road.

Because 50's car culture was totally safe, y'all, and not at all the domain of reckless hooligans and invincible teenagers.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Yes, clearly when people saw space fighters maneuvering in close quarters and shooting laser cannons at each other in the fashion of WWII fighter planes , they were supposed to think 1950s car culture, not WWII air combat. I can definitely tell you which of tjose has more broad cultural awarenes - and which was the real model for starfighter combat - and it didn't involve cars.

If you look at the trench run it resembles a WWII torpedo bomber attack, like at Midway or that sank Prince of Wales and Repulse. Needle, ball, and airspeed.

But please, tell us more about how Rey is totally a Mary Sue and Luke isnt because 1950s car racing.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I also assumed he was named after Ben Kenobi, but I didn't really think a lot about it.

I'm pretty good at checking my brain at the door for these sorts of affairs. Maybe not to the degree that I would for say, a fast and furious movie, but I'm not too bothered by inconsistencies with real life, or violations of the various laws of sciences.

I enjoyed the movie. I feel like it was money well spent, seeing at Cinerama ( which is more than I can say for most movies )

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For now, she remains a Mary Sue and Luke was not. There were explanations for Luke - he was known to be a good pilot, etc. Whether the explanation is good enough or not is irrelevant, it was explained.

Rey came out of nowhere and could do no wrong. It may be explained, in which case, fine. But for now - definitely Mary Sue.