The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2024 2:00 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 3188
I feel like DC is continually focused on watching Marvel from across the room and mimicking their gestures and movements, as best as they can. They are going through the motions, but not understanding the reasons why they're doing what they're doing.

_________________
Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:41 pm
Posts: 411
I feel like the biggest problem is for the past bunch of years Marvel has controlled their movies. With DC though you have Warner Bros controlling the movies. They don't have the same connection and care of the properties as marvel does since they are just one of a group of properties they own. With marvel though the comics are their everything, so they care about what they put out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 3188
Jhorra wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem is for the past bunch of years Marvel has controlled their movies. With DC though you have Warner Bros controlling the movies. They don't have the same connection and care of the properties as marvel does since they are just one of a group of properties they own. With marvel though the comics are their everything, so they care about what they put out.


This is true. Marvel is heavily involved with their stuff and if they disagree with the director, they get rid of the director (see: Ant Man). DC just tosses out their stuff to directors and lets them go to town however they want.

Pros and cons to each, I suppose. But Marvel already tried the latter in the early/mid 2000s and found that it did more harm than good.

_________________
Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:41 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Jhorra wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem is for the past bunch of years Marvel has controlled their movies. With DC though you have Warner Bros controlling the movies. They don't have the same connection and care of the properties as marvel does since they are just one of a group of properties they own. With marvel though the comics are their everything, so they care about what they put out.


You are 100% right. (Well, except for those Marvel properties where the rights are owned by Fox and previously Sony...although Sony's now playing nice with Marvel.)

It's worth noting that this situation exists despite Disney owning Marvel outright. Anybody who was worried about "Disnification" every time Disney buys another property has no concept of how religiously Disney maintains and guards the integrity of the intellectual property they purchase.

Numbuk wrote:
This is true. Marvel is heavily involved with their stuff and if they disagree with the director, they get rid of the director (see: Ant Man). DC just tosses out their stuff to directors and lets them go to town however they want.


To be fair, Warner Brothers had Joss Whedon under contract to make a Wonder Woman movie for them. They kept interfering, causing Whedon to leave out of "creative differences." Marvel immediately hired Whedon and he made them 3 billion dollars over 2 Avengers movies.

It isn't that DC just tosses stuff out to their directors and lets them go to town however they want -- it's not so passive. Warner Brothers actively **** up their superhero properties. (For another example, see the attempt to bring Bruce Wayne onto Smallville a few years ago.)

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:56 pm 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
Talya wrote:
For another example, see the attempt to bring Bruce Wayne onto Smallville a few years ago.


Where was this? I have all 10 seasons, and do not remember this. I am hoping to correct any memory loss I have on this subject.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:45 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Season 3: His pseudonym was Adam Knight (a portmanteau of Adam West and the Dark Knight) He was a mysterious rich orphan who was a highly trained Martial artist and hacker infiltrating luthorcorp under a false name. It was very clear who be was going to be. Then WB figured it out and made them stop, so Adam suddenly became a luthorcorp zombie/ experiment in reanimation.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Last edited by Talya on Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:07 am 
Offline
Solo Hero
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:32 pm
Posts: 3874
Location: Clarkston, Mi
Darkroland wrote:
FarSky wrote:
Oh, for ****'s sake. Really? Really?! :evil:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/02/23/ba ... home-video


What, you thought they weren't going to try to cash in on some of that sweet, sweet Deadpool money? I'm surprised they're not releasing the R-rated cut to theaters at this point.

Prepare yourself for a couple alternate-take f-bombs and some digitally added blood, hooray R-rated directors cuts of PG-13 films. /s


Not to be out done, there will be an X-Rated cut of Deadpool on DVD...

_________________
Raell Kromwell


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:14 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
32% and falling on RT... I know a few people who've seen early screenings, and they all hated it, too.

And this was the foundation upon which they wanted to build a whole set of linked DC movies.

I don't know what's wrong with Warner Brothers, but they just can't seem to get this concept done right. They insist on roasting any goose that lays golden eggs.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:40 am
Posts: 4281
Talya wrote:
32% and falling on RT... I know a few people who've seen early screenings, and they all hated it, too.

And this was the foundation upon which they wanted to build a whole set of linked DC movies.

I don't know what's wrong with Warner Brothers, but they just can't seem to get this concept done right. They insist on roasting any goose that lays golden eggs.


Man of steel was such garbage, I didn't see how they could spin that (or redeem it) with a continuation of that film. Apparently, they couldn't.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:59 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Darkroland wrote:
Man of steel was such garbage, I didn't see how they could spin that (or redeem it) with a continuation of that film. Apparently, they couldn't.


And yet they have several more spinoffs planned.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:03 pm 
Offline
Near Ground
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Yeah, this seems to be slightly less popular than an STD.

I like Snyder. I do. I liked Watchmen (particularly the director's cut), Dawn of the Dead and 300. I really like Sucker Punch, and find it a much better film than the other, more critically-acclaimed **** film that year (Inception, for those keeping score). I think Man of Steel was about 80% of a really good, interesting movie. Unfortunately, the bad parts were really bad, bordering on ruinous. Those include (but are not limited to) Superman's killing of Zod (not that he killed Zod, though I don't like that; more that Superman is supposed to be super-smart, and wildly snapping Zod's neck was a really dumb way to kill someone who is about two inches from frying a family with eyebeams) and Pa Kent's death scene.

I want Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice to be great. Signs point toward "no", though. That said, we're tentatively planning to see it on Sunday. Fingers crossed.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
FarSky wrote:
Yeah, this seems to be slightly less popular than an STD.

I like Snyder. I do. I liked Watchmen (particularly the director's cut), Dawn of the Dead and 300. I really like Sucker Punch, and find it a much better film than the other, more critically-acclaimed **** film that year (Inception, for those keeping score). I think Man of Steel was about 80% of a really good, interesting movie. Unfortunately, the bad parts were really bad, bordering on ruinous. Those include (but are not limited to) Superman's killing of Zod (not that he killed Zod, though I don't like that; more that Superman is supposed to be super-smart, and wildly snapping Zod's neck was a really dumb way to kill someone who is about two inches from frying a family with eyebeams) and Pa Kent's death scene.

I want Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice to be great. Signs point toward "no", though. That said, we're tentatively planning to see it on Sunday. Fingers crossed.

I haven't made it a point to say it later, but GOOMH, 'Skeee.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:40 am
Posts: 4281
Talya wrote:
Darkroland wrote:
Man of steel was such garbage, I didn't see how they could spin that (or redeem it) with a continuation of that film. Apparently, they couldn't.


And yet they have several more spinoffs planned.


Yep. I was having a discussion with someone about that yesterday, at this point, they've bet so heavily on this film (and the universe expanding from it), what would it take for WB to scrap it? Is this failure even going to be enough?

I seriously doubt it. Honestly, I bet this film is still a financial success. All the criticism I've read says it's an excellent spectacle (although soulless), has immense story issues and an annoying villain in Luthor, and Wonder Woman is a badass. That spells massive overseas success, so this thing will probably be financially OK.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:00 pm 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
I have heard the bad, but I have also heard that Ben Affleck as Batman is one of the redeeming qualities...

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:53 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
"Affleck, on the other hand, is by far the worst part of the movie. He's stiff and lifeless, appearing almost overburdened by his own existence. Bruce Wayne is supposed to be charming, mysterious and wicked, but Affleck doesn't capture any of that. This is an angst-ridden teenage in a 30-year-old man's body, and that conflicting portrayal kills any momentum the character may have had in the movie."

http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/24/112979 ... ice-review

It seems like the only majority opinion is that the movie is bad. But everyone has different reasons why.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:11 pm 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
So what I am reading is that Zack Snyder should be ashamed of himself for going full Michael Bay already. And that Dawn of the Dead, 300, Sucker Punch and Watchmen were flukes for him as a director.

And that DC will never be able to pull off a good Superhero Franchise atgain.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:29 pm 
Offline
Solo Hero
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:32 pm
Posts: 3874
Location: Clarkston, Mi
They have a good Superhero franchise already. Its called The Flash and it is on TV every Tuesday.

_________________
Raell Kromwell


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:39 pm 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
The Flash is barely tolerable. Speedsters in general make the physics part of my brain hurt. It's particularly bad when they throw technobabble at it and call it plot. Let's face it, Flash episodes end either with technobabble deus ex machina or with the little engine that could. The characters are entertaining but that's the only thing that makes the show watchable.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:47 pm 
Offline
Solo Hero
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:32 pm
Posts: 3874
Location: Clarkston, Mi
Oh...I will just excuse myself now. Clearly I am the dumb guy in the smart mans club.

_________________
Raell Kromwell


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:50 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Sometimes I wonder if we aren't turning into a bunch of old purists whose best days are behind us. maybe its just us collectively getting older.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:41 pm
Posts: 411
I just got back from seeing it and I was so angry by the time the end rolled around I could hardly stand it. This to me was an instance of someone clearly not understanding or respecting the source material. He ruined Doomsday in spectacular fashion. They shouldn't have even called him Doomsday. Every time Doomsday did something it just made me upset that I couldn't even enjoy it. Wonder Woman was really good. The reason Batman and Superman fought was flimsy, and when they suddenly become buddies and team up was even flimsier.

Another big issue I have with this is how boring it actually is. There is hardly any Batman or Superman in it. They barely show up at all. This was basically a throw away movie to launch their universe. Unfortunately they shoe horned into their throw away movie the Doomsday story and the Batman vs Superman story.

Old Batman is another problem. Now you have all these young superheroes and old Batman. I don't see how they undo that.

I was so upset when I came out of the movie. I think it was harder for me because I read the Death of Superman story and really liked it, so to see it crapped on like this was really disappointing.

I really get the feeling that Snyder feels he is above these comics and he is going to come in and elevate them for us.

The closest point of reference I have is how I felt coming out of the Avatar the Last Airbender movie. Something so good, completely misunderstood.

I think the people who really like this are casual fans or those who don't like Marvel and are just thrilled to finally have a DC universe.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:40 am
Posts: 4281
Jhorra wrote:
I just got back from seeing it and I was so angry by the time the end rolled around I could hardly stand it. This to me was an instance of someone clearly not understanding or respecting the source material. He ruined Doomsday in spectacular fashion. They shouldn't have even called him Doomsday. Every time Doomsday did something it just made me upset that I couldn't even enjoy it. Wonder Woman was really good. The reason Batman and Superman fought was flimsy, and when they suddenly become buddies and team up was even flimsier.

Another big issue I have with this is how boring it actually is. There is hardly any Batman or Superman in it. They barely show up at all. This was basically a throw away movie to launch their universe. Unfortunately they shoe horned into their throw away movie the Doomsday story and the Batman vs Superman story.

Old Batman is another problem. Now you have all these young superheroes and old Batman. I don't see how they undo that.

I was so upset when I came out of the movie. I think it was harder for me because I read the Death of Superman story and really liked it, so to see it crapped on like this was really disappointing.

I really get the feeling that Snyder feels he is above these comics and he is going to come in and elevate them for us.

The closest point of reference I have is how I felt coming out of the Avatar the Last Airbender movie. Something so good, completely misunderstood.

I think the people who really like this are casual fans or those who don't like Marvel and are just thrilled to finally have a DC universe.



That was totally my take on Man of Steel. "This man doesn't understand Superman AT ALL." So now I guess he doesn't understand superman or batman at all. Progress!

Here's his defense to the original Man of Steel criticism:

Quote:
I knew that we were really updating a character, a beloved character. And I don’t think changing him… you know, people are always like, “You changed Superman,” and I’m like, if you’re a comic book fan, you know I didn’t change Superman. If you know the true canon, you know that I didn’t change Superman. If you’re a fan of the old movies, yeah, I changed him a bit. But you know that’s the difference.

You know I’m a bit of a comic book fan and I always default to the true canon. Not the sort of cinematic canon that in my opinion, where they play slightly fast and loose with the rules. And so, I feel like I tried to create a Superman that would set a tone for the world.


I would love to know what comics he's reading where he thinks he's pulling this **** from.

At this point, it's looking like DC has done what they continue to do, reach for a HUGE EXPANSIVE CINEMATIC UNIVERSE, entirely at the expense of the film they're actually making. Which means it fails, and they back off and try again.

I'm glad the wonder woman film is far enough along that it's not likely to get pulled, because Goddamn it is time for her to get her own film (and black panther deserves some love too, great character when used correctly, I have yet to really even see him mentioned in reviews for BvS), but WB needs to start making one good film at a time instead of vomiting up 20 connected pieces of garbage. They're just tarnishing everything about their brand wholesale.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:49 am 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Clark Kent lived his entire life hiding who he was and what he was capable of, because he desperately wanted to call Earth his home. He was lost and confused, and afraid Earth would reject him. When the chips were down, when he was truly needed, Clark Kent put on the blue suit and appeared before the people of Earth as Superman. Given every reason to join them, Kal El rejected Krypton and chose Earth. Clark Kent is just a mask he wears to fool himself. Kal El is a man he never was. He is, was, and ever will be Superman. He chose Earth as his home, and nothing has the power to take that home away from him.

Man of Steel absolutely understood Superman.

Rorinthas wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if we aren't turning into a bunch of old purists whose best days are behind us. maybe its just us collectively getting older.

Mostly this.

The DC movies have not quite been up to the standards of the Avengers movies, or the standalone films that led into them. They haven't been pure trash, though. For the most part, comic books simply aren't high art. There are some exceptions, but most of the are pretty basic and we shouldn't be expecting cinematic masterpieces out of their movie adaptations.

Marvel has figured out how to present a superhero story that captivates audiences. DC has not, for two reasons.

1) Marvel attaches people to the project who understand why the comics have endured. They diverge from the comic canon and upset purists, but they capture the essence of why the audience loves the character. Deadpool was brilliant, and was portrayed by the perfect actor. Cap began as nothing more than a jingoistic piece of wartime propaganda, and grew to embody everything good about the United States. Jessica Jones, for all of her strength, is tormented and afraid, but she has the courage to keep going after the Purple Man. The DC movies are not as adept at finding why you love that character. (Although Man of Steel did - Kal El chose Earth over Krypton).

2) DC characters are much more basic. Here is a man or woman with superpowers, and usually way more powerful than the Marvel characters. Most Marvel characters are just regular people with one or two special attributes. Cyclops is a professional athlete that can shoot lasers out of his face. Charles Xavier is Stephen Hawking with telepathy. They are threatened by their opponents. Wolverine is unkillable, but that doesn't enable him to actually succeed, it just enables him to keep trying. Contrast that to the likes of Superman. DC characters tend to be much more powerful than their Marvel counterparts, and deus ex plays a much larger role.

This may be why appeasing purists is a bigger deal for the DC movies. They aren't as good at showing the characters we love, so they have to get the story right. Marvel showed us Deadpool being Deadpool and doing Deadpool things, and it didn't matter if they changed part of the story. Also, everyone is tired of seeing Superman and Batman all the time. DC wants to milk the cow. Marvel keeps showing us new characters. DC needed to bring out Wonder Woman ten years ago.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:47 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Not everyone at WB/DC fails to understand how to make their characters appealling.

Look at the DC Animated Universe (1992-2006) -- Put Bruce Timm in charge of creating a live action DC continuity of movies and television and watch it take off.

Look at the television series Arrow/The Flash/Supergirl/Legends of Tomorrow. You might find individual people who don't like these shows, but the ratings are soaring and way more people enjoy them than not. And you know what would make people enjoy them more? Bringing in Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent as guest stars. Keep expanding the universe.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Darkroland wrote:
(and black panther deserves some love too, great character when used correctly, I have yet to really even see him mentioned in reviews for BvS)

Hilariously for somebody who is criticizing Snyder's adherence to the source material, perhaps you should check the cover of your Black Panther comics. I believe you'll find that it says "Marvel" at the top, and this might explain why you haven't seen him mentioned in any of the Batman vs. Superman reviews. ;)

I do encourage you to keep an eye out for him in May, where he'll appear in Captain America: Civil War.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 104 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group