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 Post subject: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:28 am 
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I found this of interest because (1) I play World of Warcraft and (2) I live extremely close to where all this happened. I'm not sure what i think of the laws in Texas that she was charged under. It's an interesting case...

http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/746685

The Toronto Star wrote:
Texas woman who had tryst with Barrie [ON] teen arrested in Houston

The 42-year-old Houston woman who was investigated but not charged after flying north for a tryst with a 16-year-old Barrie boy she met online was arrested by police in Texas after she flew home early Tuesday.

Lauri Price, a mother of four, is charged with two counts of online solicitation of a minor and one count of child enticement, Harris County officials confirmed to the Star.

Price was arrested at Bush Intercontinental Airport around 12 a.m., said the Houston-based Harris County District Office, and is to appear in court Wednesday morning.

The age of consent in Ontario is 16. In Texas, it's 17 and, county officials contend, Price was in Houston when she did the online luring.

She met Andrew Kane two years ago through the online game, World of Warcraft. An intense online relationship developed, his parents have said. A Harris county prosecutor described their online chats as "incredibly sexually explicit."

Barrie police say Price flew to Canada from Houston on Dec. 29 and rented a gold 2009 Toyota Corolla at Pearson Airport before driving to Barrie to meet Kane. The teen's parents contacted police, who put out an alert. The pair was found at a movie theatre in Orillia on Dec. 31.

Price told investigators she thought Kane was 20 years old and didn't know his real age until police informed her. Barrie police released Price after they decided she didn't break any laws.

Marlene Kane, the teen's mother, told the Star on Tuesday night that she felt "relief that (Price) can't contact Andrew from where she's at now."

It was Kane who contacted the Houston Metro Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force. She said she kept in close contact with investigators. Federal immigration officials then told police of Price's return to Houston.

"We feel for Price's family. I read that she has young children and I hope she's in a place where she gets the help she needs," Kane said.

"I don't take any comfort or happiness in the fact that she's been arrested; it's not anything nice for anyone to go through, but if that's how it's got to be then that's how it's got to be," she said.

Kane said her family is focusing on helping their son "get the assistance he needs."

"We're working on his well-being. He's having challenges and will be seeking assistance for that," she said.

The teen crafted a note he left for his family before running away.

"I don't know how to explain it to you, but perhaps this will show you not only the commitment we have to each other, but also that your fears of her are ill-found," he wrote.

Kane was aware of her son's relationship with Price in 2008 after reading online chat logs between the two.

Price apparently had a history of online relationships.

Brian Stewart, of New York, said he had an online relationship with her over the same Warcraft game in 2008, but never met her in person.

"She was very sexual, emotional and 'clingy' during our months of in-game contact," Stewart wrote in an email to the Star last week.



Discuss.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:55 am 
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I don't think she did anything really wrong. The age of consent where the "enticing" happened was 16, and in Canada.

They should throw the charges out. They're kinda BS.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:56 am 
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Müs wrote:
I don't think she did anything really wrong. The age of consent where the "enticing" happened was 16, and in Canada.

They should throw the charges out. They're kinda BS.


This is especially true if her claim that the boy misrepresented his age online (he said he was 20) is true. She had no way to verify his age until she got here, and once she was here, he was still over the age of consent.

However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:00 pm 
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This is where electronic "contact" **** up judiciary boundaries.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Talya wrote:
However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.


Yes but how do you "lure" someone who you don't know is or isn't a minor? What I'm getting at is, if that's the case, how is that any different than hook-up sites? Given the assumption she doesn't know he isn't 17 (per Texas law), wouldn't that constitute the same thing?

Also, what about the states she had to cross to reach Canada? Let's say the age in Texas is 16, like Ontario, but she had to cross a few states where the age is 17 or older. Is it now Solicitation of a Minor, Child Enticement or Online Luring because she is actively pursuing what is a minor as she enters each states? What if she calls him at a payphone during a layover, is it now substantially different?

Don't get me wrong, the whole thing is a bit **** up (you're 16, **** around with girls your age!).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Talya wrote:
However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.


Yes but how do you "lure" someone who you don't know is or isn't a minor? What I'm getting at is, if that's the case, how is that any different than hook-up sites? Given the assumption she doesn't know he isn't 17 (per Texas law), wouldn't that constitute the same thing?



I agree. That's why I said her claim that the boy misrepresented his age is rather pivotal...if she can convince the jury of that, I think it's crucial to her defense.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Is she hot?

Niceee

[youtube]8hdbns1Xdk0[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Is she hot?


I was expecting that from Arafys.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Müs wrote:
I don't think she did anything really wrong. The age of consent where the "enticing" happened was 16, and in Canada.

They should throw the charges out. They're kinda BS.


This is especially true if her claim that the boy misrepresented his age online (he said he was 20) is true. She had no way to verify his age until she got here, and once she was here, he was still over the age of consent.

However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.


Which is bullshit. The kid lied about his age.

And Dash... GOOMH :p

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Rafael wrote:
Talya wrote:
However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.


Yes but how do you "lure" someone who you don't know is or isn't a minor? What I'm getting at is, if that's the case, how is that any different than hook-up sites? Given the assumption she doesn't know he isn't 17 (per Texas law), wouldn't that constitute the same thing?



I agree. That's why I said her claim that the boy misrepresented his age is rather pivotal...if she can convince the jury of that, I think it's crucial to her defense.


I should have worded that better. Why is Online Luring a seperate charge? I don't understand what about it is so significant that isn't already encompassed by soliciting sex from a minor and child enticement. It's like charging a guy who shoots up a bank with 10 counts of murder and 1 count of bringing a weapon into a gun-free zone, except more ludicrous.

I just see this charge coming from a law that will eventually put online hook-up sites, dating sites maybe even Facebook, under pressure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Why is Online Luring a seperate charge? I don't understand what about it is so significant that isn't already encompassed by soliciting sex from a minor and child enticement.


I imagine they hope it makes it easier to accomplish the following:
-You can catch a predator before they catch their prey.
-You can catch a predator seeking prey outside your jurisdiction.

Legislators really have no idea how to deal with the internet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Is someone taking notes so she'll be ready when she hits 40?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Talya wrote:
However, the laws she is charged with are for online "luring", which she did in Texas, not Ontario.


Yes but how do you "lure" someone who you don't know is or isn't a minor?


You don't. The entire history of criminal law indicates you must possess criminal intent.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Based on the limited information from the OP, intent is a factor in whether she is guilty or not (ignoring the issues of differences in age of consent, etc).

However, as an absolute, your statement is false DFK!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
However, as an absolute, your statement is false DFK!


Nope. Mens rea is historically required for criminality to even be considered.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Statutory Rape requires no intent to have sex with a minor. Merely the act (though I suppose it might require an intent to have sex with the individual, but knowledge that they are underage does not exempt you, TMK) is sufficient to indicate the crime.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
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That's one example, as are cases involving negligence (lack of intent) down to things as petty as "driving too fast for conditions".

Mens rea is important, no doubt, with a long history, but it does not support "The entire history of criminal law indicates you must possess criminal intent."

Has it not been ruled that lack of knowledge of law does not exempt one from prosecution. It might be a mitigating factor in sentencing or level of guilt though, especially in our modern judicial system.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:27 pm 
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I don't know if the Texas statute in question is Strict Liability (strict liability means no intent is required, not even negligence; it means that if you fail to perform a duty for any reason you are criminally responsible for it; in this case verifying someone's age before engaging in sexual activity with a minor).

In any case, I think Texas is rather wasting its time, and may be overstepping its boundaries since the victim not only never entered Texas but never even entered the United States.

A big part of the problem here is that so many "Sex/romantic activity/porn involving a minor" laws are strict liability. Certainly an adult has a responsibility to verify the age of someone they think is a minor before engaging in sex with them. That's just part of being an adult. However, the fact is that children, especially teenagers, can and do lie and can and do understand the law and have some level of legal responsibility for their own actions. It really should be an afirmative defense to such a charge that the minor misrepresented their age, especially if the minor is old enough to appear to be an adult to the naked eye, or furnishes fake ID or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It really should be an afirmative defense to such a charge that the minor misrepresented their age, especially if the minor is old enough to appear to be an adult to the naked eye, or furnishes fake ID or something like that.


Or if the only sexing took place between a Tauren and an Undead.

Wait... she should be busted for bestiality and necrophilia too!

And they were at a freaking movie! Its not like they were caught en flagrante delicto or something.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
It really should be an afirmative defense to such a charge that the minor misrepresented their age, especially if the minor is old enough to appear to be an adult to the naked eye, or furnishes fake ID or something like that.


Or if the only sexing took place between a Tauren and an Undead.

Wait... she should be busted for bestiality and necrophilia too!

And they were at a freaking movie! Its not like they were caught en flagrante delicto or something.


For most any crime you can also me charged under the "attempt" statute, unless "attempt" is already an element of the offense. You can't "attempt to attempt" something. For example, in Ohio, Assault is defined as "causing or attempting to cause physical harm to another". You therefore can't charge someone in Ohio with "attempted assault" because attempting to do the act, legally, is the act in that particular case.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
That's one example, as are cases involving negligence (lack of intent) down to things as petty as "driving too fast for conditions".


Criminal negligence is gross negligence, which requires mens rea.

Ladas wrote:
Mens rea is important, no doubt, with a long history, but it does not support "The entire history of criminal law indicates you must possess criminal intent."


Actually it does. It is one of the two items that must be demonstrated in a criminal procedure to convict.

Ladas wrote:
Has it not been ruled that lack of knowledge of law does not exempt one from prosecution. It might be a mitigating factor in sentencing or level of guilt though, especially in our modern judicial system.


Sure, and that's the problem.

You can get convicted on some heinously unjust horseshit. Then on appeal it would hopefully be overturned by a judge who knows better.


Strict liability, like DE mentioned, is the only exception I can think of to this.



US v. Morrisette is a landmark case for mens rea in the US.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:00 pm 
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my question is this.... why are they prosecuting her at all? If he is over the legal age of consent in the country he NEVER LEFT.. but Texas arrested her... does the State of Texas have international jurisdiction and the ability to ignore the age of consent in another sovereign nation?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:06 pm 
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This is the distaff version of a much larger problem. Men have traveled to foreign countries, especially places like Thailand, for decades because of the lax attitude toward prostitution and sex with children if the money is good enough.

The woman here traveled to a foreign country and specifically to have sex with a child. If she knew he was 16, she committed a felony by Texas law. The United Kingdom is prosecuting their citizens for the same practice. I've heard of laws in consideration here but I don't know if any have been passed.

I really am not sure where I stand on this. Half of me wants to cheer the young, and legal in his own country, geek on -- Yay, he bagged a cougar. The other half thinks what she has done should be used as a defining case of how the laws apply.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Funny.

If this were an older male soliciting a younger woman online, he'd be crucified . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Pretty true Rodahn.

Creepy is creepy though, and she is.

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