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Which presidential candidate do you plan to vote for in the general election?
Clinton 21%  21%  [ 7 ]
Trump 15%  15%  [ 5 ]
Third Party 47%  47%  [ 16 ]
Write-In 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm not sure 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I don't plan to vote 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm not eligible to vote 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 34
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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
And what was the "general reaction" of "the South" to Obergefell v. Hodges? Please highlight the intolerance of "the South" in general to the opinions of others, as opposed to, say, New Yorkers:
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According to a Quinnipiac University poll released on May 14, 2009, New York voters were evenly split—46% to 46%—on same-sex marriage.


While doing so, be sure to explain your own biases and prejudices in light of what many consider bigotry regarding your own favorite groups such as the religious, conservatives, and those residing in the South.


It's not so bad when people are simply "opposed" to gay marriage, but when people like Kim Davis and Roy Moore who act like petulant children throwing a tantrum over the issue get as much support as they do, you really have to wonder what the average Southerner is thinking.


Kim Davis really did not get a great deal of support.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Kim Davis really did not get a great deal of support.


I can't speak for how much support she actually got.
The support she did get was rather vocal, which can lead to the perception of a lot of support, whether true or not.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Kim Davis really did not get a great deal of support.


I can't speak for how much support she actually got.
The support she did get was rather vocal, which can lead to the perception of a lot of support, whether true or not.


It was, indeed, quite vocal.

However, she managed to alienate a lot of other people that might have been sympathetic by being a government official refusing to do her duty, but being unwilling to resign the $80,000 a year position she held. That tends to not go well with people even if they agree in principle.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 3:08 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
And what was the "general reaction" of "the South" to Obergefell v. Hodges? Please highlight the intolerance of "the South" in general to the opinions of others, as opposed to, say, New Yorkers:
Quote:
According to a Quinnipiac University poll released on May 14, 2009, New York voters were evenly split—46% to 46%—on same-sex marriage.


While doing so, be sure to explain your own biases and prejudices in light of what many consider bigotry regarding your own favorite groups such as the religious, conservatives, and those residing in the South.


It's not so bad when people are simply "opposed" to gay marriage, but when people like Kim Davis and Roy Moore who act like petulant children throwing a tantrum over the issue get as much support as they do, you really have to wonder what the average Southerner is thinking.

Please explain how these two individuals represent "the South".
Again, what was the "general reaction" of "the South" to Obergefell v. Hodges?
Why do you believe these two individuals have the support of "the South"?
What is the difference between "simple" opposition and bigotry?

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 7:19 am 
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Any state with large numbers of poor, rural white people is "the South" and they all think exactly what urban sophisticates think they do. Any time they express an opinion it's either bigoted, or a dog whistle for bigotry.

Double points if you "grew up there" and "know what 'they' are really like", especially if you can cite examples circa 1982 as solid evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 8:52 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Any state with large numbers of poor, rural white people is "the South" and they all think exactly what urban sophisticates think they do.


Hey, don't pick on the poor rural white people. Poor rural black people are equally capable of "southern thinking."

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 10:24 am 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Any state with large numbers of poor, rural white people is "the South" and they all think exactly what urban sophisticates think they do.


Hey, don't pick on the poor rural white people. Poor rural black people are equally capable of "southern thinking."


You're not allowed to say that. It doesn't fit the narrative.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 11:33 am 
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Talya wrote:
Hey, don't pick on the poor rural white people. Poor rural black people are equally capable of "southern thinking."


That is David Wolf levels of idiocy right there.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 5:26 pm 
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Ulfynn wrote:
I'd like to see Clinton jailed and Trump laughed out of the race. The problem is, neither of those are likely. I want to vote 3rd party, but that feels like a vote for Clinton, which I don't know that I can abide.

Leaning Constitution myself, but i can't help but feel the same way...

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:00 am 
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Of note, last night Hillary Clinton lost every county in West Virginia to Bernie Sanders. 8 years ago, she WON every county.

Kim Davis was from Kentucky.

These are coal country states, and they are "country", but they are not "the South". West Virginia split off from Virginia in the Civil War; Kentucky never seceded. These states are imagined to be the South only by the sort of people that are annoyed by how Southerners and country folks talk.

West Virginia went for Bernie Sanders last night because of Barack Obama. 8 years ago they went Clinton because she was not Obama. This is not because Obama is a black man; it's because of his policies. Clinton is still not a black man; she's promising more Obama policies. The only "black" that matters here is Bauxite.

She's worn it on her sleeve that she's perfectly willing to put these people out of work, and her promises of assistance ring hollow for 2 reasons - coal jobs have to be in coal country; "clean energy" jobs don't, so those can very easily be jobs for other people in locations that are both physically and politically more convenient. "Oh, but just re-locate!" (as the idiots at National Review have suggested). Who is paying for people to move to these new jobs? Will those jobs wait for them? If they do, what happens to the area left behind? It loses more population, more representatives and electoral votes, and stays economically depressed and serves even less political purpose and gets less attention than it does now except to be a source of straw men to be attacked and fearmongered over because if we're not careful they'll totally take over the Supreme Court and put everything back to 1850!!

These are people that were reliably union Democrats for decades. They've finally figured out that the Democrats ceased caring about them a long time ago when clean energy and fears of angry white workers became valuable in winning Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Michigan.

The same applies to Kim Davis. Kim Davis is Democrat baggage, not Republican. Mike Huckabee showed up to support her; he's a 3 time loser candidate and a total also-ran in this election. No one else did, not even Ted Cruz - and Davis only became a Republican once her idiotic actions blew up in her face. Democrats were telling her within the current administration that "marriage is between a man and a woman". The Democrats dropped that like a hot potato once they figured out they could compensate with their own evangelicals by just ramping up the racial identity politics.

The Democrats - and Clinton in particular - are simply trying to do too many things at once. They want to be all about jobs and the underclass, but only as long as those jobs fit their environmental agenda. They expect longtime union voters to stick with them, while they demonize those same voters on racial and gender grounds. They want free college for everyone, but endorse movements on college campuses that are openly hostile not just to competing viewpoints, but who will actively accost their fellow students while they try to study.

Hillary Clinton cannot put away an elderly socialist. This should be a warning - even if she wins, what will happen in 4 or 8 years when there are no more victim-group-firsts, and no one who has been running for President for 25 years to put on the ticket?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:56 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
And what was the "general reaction" of "the South" to Obergefell v. Hodges? Please highlight the intolerance of "the South" in general to the opinions of others, as opposed to, say, New Yorkers:
Quote:
According to a Quinnipiac University poll released on May 14, 2009, New York voters were evenly split—46% to 46%—on same-sex marriage.


While doing so, be sure to explain your own biases and prejudices in light of what many consider bigotry regarding your own favorite groups such as the religious, conservatives, and those residing in the South.


It's not so bad when people are simply "opposed" to gay marriage, but when people like Kim Davis and Roy Moore who act like petulant children throwing a tantrum over the issue get as much support as they do, you really have to wonder what the average Southerner is thinking.

Please explain how these two individuals represent "the South".
Again, what was the "general reaction" of "the South" to Obergefell v. Hodges?
Why do you believe these two individuals have the support of "the South"?
What is the difference between "simple" opposition and bigotry?


Roy Moore is an elected official and was still reelected in a landslide after ordering every probate judge in the state to not recognize gay marriage.

Come on, 1 in 5 Southerners believes Obama is a Muslim. It's hard to attribute that to anything but racism, considering literally the only thing about Obama that suggests he's a Muslim is the fact that he's black and has a vaguely Muslim sounding name.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:18 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Roy Moore is an elected official and was still reelected in a landslide after ordering every probate judge in the state to not recognize gay marriage.


Clearly that was the only relevant issue in that entire election, his opponent was completely irrelevant, and you can obviously generalize from that state to all the other states where similar incidents didn't occur.

I guess we can also generalize from the lesbian mayor of Houston that wanted to subpoena sermons from local churches for political purposes that gay politicians have no respect for freedom of speech or free exercise, right?

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Come on, 1 in 5 Southerners believes Obama is a Muslim. It's hard to attribute that to anything but racism, considering literally the only thing about Obama that suggests he's a Muslim is the fact that he's black and has a vaguely Muslim sounding name.


Obama's name is more than just vaguely muslim, when you consider his middle name. Furthermore, thinking someone is a muslim isn't "racist", and given the nature of the church he attended, being a muslim might actually be a more favorable view of him (even if false) given that Jeremiah Wright is about 10 times more racist than what the left normally complains about - and is probably pretty homophobic to boot.

Furthermore, you're complaining about "racism" by engaging in exactly the same sort of bigotry towards Southerners we've been talking about. 1 in 5 believe something? Well A) that's all races and B) that means 4 in 5 do not.

1 in 3 black males will (allegedly) go to prison in their lifetime too; I guess they really are all criminals, since we can now draw widespread conclusions based on the status of a minority portion of a group, right?

You're illustrating exactly why people are so fed up with the PC/leftist BS - because it's blatantly hypocritical and not even trying to hide it any more.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:48 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Come on, 1 in 5 Southerners believes Obama is a Muslim. It's hard to attribute that to anything but racism, considering literally the only thing about Obama that suggests he's a Muslim is the fact that he's black and has a vaguely Muslim sounding name.

"... my muslim faith..."
Foreign policy
Does very little in the eyes of the Christian community to demonstrate reverence for Christ
Attended a Black Liberation Theology church for what seemed political expedience

I'm not saying I support these viewpoints as evidence. But these are things I hear people cite when calling the President a closet muslim.

For me, personally, I see nothing about him that suggests he is Christian. I don't, however, believe him to be muslim.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 3:50 pm 
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I don't think Obama is a Muslim, but if he secretly were, most people wouldn't be too surprised. If someone like George W. Bush was secretly a Muslim, that would be extremely surprising.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 4:42 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
I don't think Obama is a Muslim, but if he secretly were, most people wouldn't be too surprised. If someone like George W. Bush was secretly a Muslim, that would be extremely surprising.


Nah, not really. I know that a lot of closeted homosexuals can be extremely homophobic.

Stands to reason a closeted muslim would be the same. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
I don't think Obama is a Muslim, but if he secretly were, most people wouldn't be too surprised. If someone like George W. Bush was secretly a Muslim, that would be extremely surprising.


Nah, not really. I know that a lot of closeted homosexuals can be extremely homophobic.

Stands to reason a closeted muslim would be the same. ;)

So by the same logic, you must be a closet zealot?

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:26 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, you're complaining about "racism" by engaging in exactly the same sort of bigotry towards Southerners we've been talking about. 1 in 5 believe something? Well A) that's all races and B) that means 4 in 5 do not.

1 in 3 black males will (allegedly) go to prison in their lifetime too; I guess they really are all criminals, since we can now draw widespread conclusions based on the status of a minority portion of a group, right?

You're illustrating exactly why people are so fed up with the PC/leftist BS - because it's blatantly hypocritical and not even trying to hide it any more.


I never claimed all Southerners were racist, I said the South has a "serious problem with bigotry."


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:50 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, you're complaining about "racism" by engaging in exactly the same sort of bigotry towards Southerners we've been talking about. 1 in 5 believe something? Well A) that's all races and B) that means 4 in 5 do not.

1 in 3 black males will (allegedly) go to prison in their lifetime too; I guess they really are all criminals, since we can now draw widespread conclusions based on the status of a minority portion of a group, right?

You're illustrating exactly why people are so fed up with the PC/leftist BS - because it's blatantly hypocritical and not even trying to hide it any more.


I never claimed all Southerners were racist, I said the South has a "serious problem with bigotry."


You said that it was hard to attribute the "1 in 5 Southerners think Obama is a muslim" to anything but racism, implying that the south is, in general, racist. Even if you technically didn't say, or mean, that ALL of them are racist, you made the claim in such a way as to imply that this 1 in 5 is just the tip of the iceberg or something along those lines.

I'm not sure where this statistic even came from, but the bottom line is that the major portion of the "problem with bigotry" the South has is entirely a problem of minorities and the left continually moving the goalposts. The vast majority of the "bigotry" is the "bigotry" of suspecting any minority they run across of being willing to play the race card at the drop of a hat - and that belief is being fed by leftists and the media.

You can certainly go find some Mississippi Burning style redneck shitkickers that are racist as hell in the South, but for the most part they're people that also can't hold a job, can barely keep a car running or maintain a consistent residence for a year, or if they do have one it's some place even the post office is reluctant to go, and they're killing themselves off with booze, Heroin and Meth at an amazing pace, when they aren't getting hunted down by the local sheriff for dealing it. They are not running the show, and the left secretly adores them because they're a straw man for every rural white person in the country.

The Left does not care about reducing bigotry one iota - it's a matter of excusing forms they agree with, while condemning the resulting resentment that generates as new bigotry, and reaping the rewards of identity politics.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:32 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The vast majority of the "bigotry" is the "bigotry" of suspecting any minority they run across of being willing to play the race card at the drop of a hat - and that belief is being fed by leftists and the media.

Frankly, when you go straight from openly discriminating against black people to bitterly resenting them for not letting go of the fact that you used to openly discriminate against them, I question the sincerity and depth of your conversion from racism.

*ETA: That's a general "you", of course.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:30 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
The vast majority of the "bigotry" is the "bigotry" of suspecting any minority they run across of being willing to play the race card at the drop of a hat - and that belief is being fed by leftists and the media.

Frankly, when you go straight from openly discriminating against black people to bitterly resenting them for not letting go of the fact that you used to openly discriminate against them, I question the sincerity and depth of your conversion from racism.

*ETA: That's a general "you", of course.


We didn't go "straight from" one to the other. There's about a 15-20 year period in there from around 1980 to around 2000 where race relations were steadily improving.

Furthermore, the people that were "openly discriminating" against blacks are now retired or dead. People learning to drive in 1965 are drawing social security now. 2 generations have grown where legal discrimination was not the reality, and illegal discrimination has been dealt with harshly.

As for the resentment, it's not just any failure to let it go, it's a combination of endless demonization of white people, demands for tangible race-based benefits, and the condoning of violent thuggery disguised as protest.

Your wild oversimplification is the cause of any "questioning" you might be doing, and frankly, part of the problem is that you, and the rest of the left, need to get it through your heads that you are not the approving authority for sufficiently reformed racial attitudes.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:39 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
We didn't go "straight from" one to the other. There's about a 15-20 year period in there from around 1980 to around 2000 where race relations were steadily improving.

True, I was engaging in a little rhetorical hyperbole / oversimplification, but I think there's some validity to it, at least as far as the right is concerned. In the 60s, we dismantled the formal structures of segregation, and in the 70s and 80s, as people adjusted to the new reality, it gradually became less acceptable to be overtly racist. By the 90s and the 00s, open racism was pretty solidly anathema in the culture at large. However, the shift of working class, white voters over to the Republicans during that period was directly related to those changes, and Republican political rhetoric adopted a healthy dose of racially-coded resentment in the 70s and 80s - e.g., the "tough on crime" and "war on drugs" stuff, Reagan's "welfare queens", Bush Sr.'s Willie Horton crap, talk radio, etc. The voters who switched to the Republicans because of their opposition to legal desegregation in the 60s and social/cultural desegregation in the 70s and 80s sure as **** didn't think those things meant cracking down on poor, rural, white people, and they were right about that, as it was urban, black people who were disproportionately impacted by those policies. Then in the 90s, the left embraced "political correctness" as a rallying cry, and the political right jumped all over it as a way to preserve and reinvigorate that dwindling resentment. I agree, though, that by the '00s, the main battles were largely won, and much of the old school bigotry had died out (although it's worth noting that it wasn't until the mid-90s that a majority of this country even approved of inter-racial marriage). And yet, the right is still playing off that lingering resentment, only now it's resentment that the left won't let it go and is "demonizing" white people.

So my point is, although the country as a whole has indeed shifted definitively away from racism, the racial politics of the right has, for 50+ years, been about resisting and resenting that shift. There was no intervening period when the right embraced the idea of remedying the racial disparities in this country and advocated for policies designed to do that. That's what I mean when I say they went straight from discrimination to resentment. Yes, we've probably reached the point where continuing to focus on racial grievances is counterproductive and in some cases even unjust, but we got here despite the right, and we had to drag them kicking and screaming every step of the way.


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 11:41 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
True, I was engaging in a little rhetorical hyperbole / oversimplification, but I think there's some validity to it, at least as far as the right is concerned. In the 60s, we dismantled the formal structures of segregation, and in the 70s and 80s, as people adjusted to the new reality, it gradually became less acceptable to be overtly racist. By the 90s and the 00s, open racism was pretty solidly anathema in the culture at large. However, the shift of working class, white voters over to the Republicans during that period was directly related to those changes, and Republican political rhetoric adopted a healthy dose of racially-coded resentment in the 70s and 80s - e.g., the "tough on crime" and "war on drugs" stuff, Reagan's "welfare queens", Bush Sr.'s Willie Horton crap, talk radio, etc. The voters who switched to the Republicans because of their opposition to legal desegregation in the 60s and social/cultural desegregation in the 70s and 80s sure as **** didn't think those things meant cracking down on poor, rural, white people, and they were right about that, as it was urban, black people who were disproportionately impacted by those policies. Then in the 90s, the left embraced "political correctness" as a rallying cry, and the political right jumped all over it as a way to preserve and reinvigorate that dwindling resentment. I agree, though, that by the '00s, the main battles were largely won, and much of the old school bigotry had died out (although it's worth noting that it wasn't until the mid-90s that a majority of this country even approved of inter-racial marriage). And yet, the right is still playing off that lingering resentment, only now it's resentment that the left won't let it go and is "demonizing" white people./quote]

What you're ignoring in this is that simply calling this "racially coded" and referring to it as "resentment" is exactly the sort of portrayal of the concerns of white people, especially working-class whites, as A) necessarily opposed to the interests of minorities B) driven almost exclusively by racial resentment, and C) very subtly shifting from opposing the overt, Jim Crow bigotry of the South pre-1965 to opposing an insubstantial suspicion of bigotry on the part of any white person that does not adopt the attitudes and positions the left and minorities - particularly blacks - have deemed acceptable.

The reason the right jumped all over "political correctness" in the 1990s was that it was the first sign of what we're seeing today - actual racism was almost completely stamped out, and the elft turned to any frank discussion of real problems as a target to call "racist" because it might bring up some uncomfortable realities. Complaining that "tough on crime" is racially coded is a way of distracting from the fact that crime is a real thing - and really was a serious issue from the late 1960s through 1990 or so.

It's making a resurgence lately because the left has abandoned all pretenses of actually addressing meaningful bigotry and is now using it as blatant grab for the power to place opposing ideas out of bounds. "Disproportionate impact" is one such claim - it's essentially a circular argument that the aren't "proportional" because the system is racist and then turn around and say "well, we know it's racist because these results aren't proportional!" Yet calling out this terrible reasoning is labeled "resentment" or "White privilege" and the underlying implication - that minorities should get a discount in these "disproportionate" systems to make them more "socially just" while ignoring that this is a call for massive minority-favoring discrimination at the individual level - is never discussed in public forums because some BLM protestors will show up and literally shout you down for daring to point out these uncomfortable facts.

It has far more absurd elements as well, such as the complaints of "cultural appropriation", and with white people getting caught pretending to be black the emperor literally has no clothes at all.

It isn't just that it became less acceptable to be overtly racist, it's that people actually became a lot less racist, very rapidly - because over that period of 1965 to 1985 an entire generation learned that the sky wouldn't fall in because things changed. The problem was, however, that while that was being learned the seeds of resentment were already being sown on economic grounds. The reason was that so much of the effort to remedy the lingering effects of several hundred years of discrimination were, themselves, both ham-handed and blatantly discriminatory and remain that way today. The reason we were still able to make progress on racial attitudes up until about 15-20 years ago was that A) older people that held pre-1965 attitudes were still significant in the workforce and were being weeded out, resulting in progress, and B) that the resentment was aimed far more at the system than at the minorities themselves becuase while Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and a few other crazies were individual punchlines you weren't seeing widespread lunacy - and when you did (Rodney King riots) it was, at least, in response to a real incident where the authorities really were in the wrong, not fabricated claims (Treyvon Martin/Ferguson) or imaginary "violence" and "silencing" on campuses by highly privileged young black people.

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So my point is, although the country as a whole has indeed shifted definitively away from racism, the racial politics of the right has, for 50+ years, been about resisting and resenting that shift.


This is where you're entirely wrong. The politic of the right has been portrayed that way by the left for the last 50 years - fed by the "dog whistle" concept that was really about simply purloining some extra voters who were never going to get what they wanted anyhow - but the simple fact is that while many of the issues you cite have had a disproportionate effect on blacks, that is because the issues driving Republican policies really did exist. The War on Drugs may be foolish in hindsight, but at the time it seemed like a real, legitimate problem. So was crime in general, which was rampant in cities.

Black leaders heavily supported things like the "war on drugs" and efforts to address rampant crime in their communities, as well. When Crack first appeared, some even suggested crack itself was a racist invention to target blacks. Now, when blacks are disproportionately in prison, they complain about mass incarceration. Of course the problem that people only hint at, for fear of being labelled a racist, is really that blacks remain mostly poor despite 50 years of ham-handed efforts to help them (note my earlier comments about the much different effect efforts to grant women more opportunities has had over roughly the same period) resulting in them being disproportionately criminal in the first place. References to black-on-black crime are the only socially acceptable way to call out this glaring refusal to accept that there are a disproportionate number of black criminals in the first place.

No one cracked down on rural whites because while there is certainly a white, rural, criminal element it's physically spread out, not concentrated like in a city. Small towns and rural areas simply don't spawn the kind of gang-related crime problems that urban areas do; while rural white gangs exist (ever heard of the Dixie Mafia?) they tend to be much more hidden by simple geography and don't create the appearance of an urban war zone that puts entire neighborhoods off-limits; you can find backwoods dirt roads its unwise to drive down, but they're 3 hours from anywhere so there's no one driving down them and getting robbed for their tennis shoes anyhow. Yet these physical realities are constantly glossed-over in the efforts to make this all about "White resentment" and only that.

In fact, the "white resentment" you're referring to has been about white people suddenly finding themselves labelled "racists" when they hear about Willie Horton and think "yeah, who let that guy out?" and then suddenly find themselves labelled Jim Crow racists for noticing a problem. The Democrats have exploited this endlessly by portraying any criticism of any policy they propose or back as being driven by an underlying motivation of hostility towards whoever its supposed to help. To go back to Willie Horton, the Democrats only rarely if ever brought up any merits of the prison furlough program - I seem to recall vaguely that it allegedly reduced recidivism among participants by an unspecified amount - but that was only ever brought up as if everyone should simply already know that and it just proves that all opposition is racist.

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There was no intervening period when the right embraced the idea of remedying the racial disparities in this country and advocated for policies designed to do that. That's what I mean when I say they went straight from discrimination to resentment. Yes, we've probably reached the point where continuing to focus on racial grievances is counterproductive and in some cases even unjust, but we got here despite the right, and we had to drag them kicking and screaming every step of the way.


Why would anyone embrace such policies, when we've had 50 years of those policies and they have not served to do any such thing? They started out as ham-fisted "lets counter discrimination with reverse discrimination!" and any opposition to them, or even attempts to re-frame the problems in economic terms have been shouted down with screams of "Racism!"

In point of fact, you haven't gotten anywhere and you haven't "dragged the right kicking and screaming" at all. The left can take practically no credit for any racial progress; the aforementioned progress largely made until about 2000 wasn't the product of the left or the right, it was the progress of average people of all races accepting and adjusting to new realities. The left spent this entire time trying to downplay this progress and re-frame any issue it could in terms of the need for such progress so as to maintain the status quo of white racists that needed to be combated - white racists that mysteriously came to mean any white person that was not on board with the leftist agenda must be a racist harboring Jim Crow attitudes that mysteriously get attributed to white people in places where those attitudes were previously far more rare and more mild.

The right is responsible only insofar as it has failed to find an effective counter to the left's simple and direct racial (and for that matter, gender-related and more lately sexuality-related) messaging, mainly for lack of trying, occasionally excessive concern with foreign affairs, and the baggage of a top end that really doesn't care if they're called racists as long as economic growth occurs.

The only place the left has managed to drag us kicking and screaming is to a world where the press has abandoned all pretense of neutrality (and don't even bring up FOX; no they aren't neutral, but they LOVE the current state of affairs since they can sell news/commentary to people that just want to be able to hear something WITHOUT a leftist slant, and the same goes for Limbaugh, Beck, et al) and where crisis can simply be fabricated and sold wholesale in the most tranquil, privileged places in human history - the college campus. People blatantly adopt identities they do not possess simply for the privilege of claiming to be victims of vague social forces that science cannot even hope to prove or disprove the existence of.

RD, it's really time for the left to take a look in the mirror and stop the pretense of moral high ground - and by that I mean precisely the condescending attitude you're adopting here. The left has spent 50 years portraying white, working class people as the enemy of minorities, advocating policies that to favor minorities explicitly (which, by their own logic and messaging must necessarily disadvantage white working people even if the policy itself actually wouldn't), and trying to assume the authority to pronounce opposition outside the realm of legitimate political discourse.

The expiration date has passed on this, and it's passed obviously with the events of the last 2-5 years. The left has made essentially no racial progress since 1965; it has only advocated for reverse discrimination and actual progress has been made by either the enforcement agencies of government or by the attitudes of the average person. It has certainly totally failed to elevate black people, mainly because endless attempts to make everything "proportionate" and wailing and moaning about the "racism" of anyone that points out the real problems or says "hey look your programs are themselves discriminatory and aren't actually working" or worse points out the socially-destructive attitudes endemic to the poor and therefore among poor minorities don't actually do a thing to solve anyone's problems, and making that progress would mean political disaster for the left.

It's fundamentally the same problem as attitudes towards rape - that ANY acknowledgement of progress, nuance, or of another side to the issue hinders further progress - that the left simply must divest itself of, and stop blaming the attitudes it imagines everyone else to have.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 1:22 pm 
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Again, I don't disagree that the anti-racism of the left has jumped the shark in recent years. I do think you massively overestimate the degree to which racism was over in the 90s (again, in 1994, half the country still thought interracial marriage was wrong), but I still agree that the tipping point was reached in that decade and rapid progress has been made since then. So lets focus on that 1965 to 1985 period, since that's where I think we're the farthest apart. You say, "It isn't just that it became less acceptable to be overtly racist, it's that people actually became a lot less racist, very rapidly - because over that period of 1965 to 1985 an entire generation learned that the sky wouldn't fall in because things changed." That's true. However, it's just a little too coincidental, don't you think, that white voters on the right during that era just happened to move, en masse, to the party that made fighting crime, drugs and welfare key parts of its platform and just happened to enthusiastically embrace talk radio and its resentment-filled rants against Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, political correctness, the race card, etc.? In your telling, you seem to be portraying white, blue collar voters as having undergone some rapid conversion on the road to Damascus after the Civil Rights era and then only becoming resentful over time because their conversion wasn't properly acknowledged and they were constantly harangued by the arrogant left. You don't find that narrative a bit suspect? Isn't a much more reasonable narrative that folks gradually realized that flat-out racism wasn't ok, but still had a lingering sense of tribalism and prejudice that political elites on the right stoked for electoral gain and ratings/profits by focusing on issues that, while legitimate concerns, nevertheless had clear racial divides built in?


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 5:18 pm 
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Let's stop using the terms "reverse discrimination" and "reverse racism." It's time we were honest and said precisely what we mean.

The left are bigots. They are looking to eshrine institutionalized racism and sexism into the legal code for their own political gain. The current generation of liberals looking for intolerance to crusade against need only look in the mirror. The face that stares back at them is the face of 21st century bigotry.

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 Post subject: Re: Presidential Poll
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:27 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Again, I don't disagree that the anti-racism of the left has jumped the shark in recent years. I do think you massively overestimate the degree to which racism was over in the 90s (again, in 1994, half the country still thought interracial marriage was wrong), but I still agree that the tipping point was reached in that decade and rapid progress has been made since then. So lets focus on that 1965 to 1985 period, since that's where I think we're the farthest apart. You say, "It isn't just that it became less acceptable to be overtly racist, it's that people actually became a lot less racist, very rapidly - because over that period of 1965 to 1985 an entire generation learned that the sky wouldn't fall in because things changed." That's true. However, it's just a little too coincidental, don't you think, that white voters on the right during that era just happened to move, en masse, to the party that made fighting crime, drugs and welfare key parts of its platform and just happened to enthusiastically embrace talk radio and its resentment-filled rants against Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, political correctness, the race card, etc.? In your telling, you seem to be portraying white, blue collar voters as having undergone some rapid conversion on the road to Damascus after the Civil Rights era and then only becoming resentful over time because their conversion wasn't properly acknowledged and they were constantly harangued by the arrogant left. You don't find that narrative a bit suspect? Isn't a much more reasonable narrative that folks gradually realized that flat-out racism wasn't ok, but still had a lingering sense of tribalism and prejudice that political elites on the right stoked for electoral gain and ratings/profits by focusing on issues that, while legitimate concerns, nevertheless had clear racial divides built in?



A friend of mine -- a red-headed, Danish-Canadian man, married a Jamaican woman, and moved down to Florida in the mid 1990s. 4 years later they returned, citing the incredible racism they experienced as a mixed-race couple making it pretty much intolerable for them.

Mind you, they got just as much or more racism from the black community as they did from white people.

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