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 Post subject: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Thought this would be buzzing.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:34 pm 
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I mentioned it in the France thread, and no one responded.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:08 pm 
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I'm mostly just ... tired. Of seeing / hearing about / talking about / doing nothing about gun violence.

Also sad.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:55 pm 
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All these major terrorist incidents seem to hit close to home for me. I used to go to Orlando every summer to see family, I went to Paris for a month in 2014 (and went on a Thalys train), I live near Boston, I've been to the top of the WTC before planes crashed into it. It's a scary world out there. I kind of wish I could buy a gun to defend myself but it's too difficult in Massachusetts to get a license.


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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:23 am 
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Lenas wrote:
I'm mostly just ... tired. Of seeing / hearing about / talking about / doing nothing about gun violence.

Also sad.


If you give up the idea that there's such a thing as "gun violence" you won't have that problem.

"Doing something about gun violence" is just a euphamism for gun control, which itself is a solution looking for a problem. What we need to "do about it" is accept that society will always have crime. Every time something occurs (related to guns or not) we get a huge wave of stupid ideas to "make sure it doesn't happen again", even if it's something that essentially never happens anyhow and is a giant fluke, like a small child being attacked and killed by an alligator.*

With guns, that results in the exploitation of any shooting to push new gun control measures. We don't need them. Gun deaths are not a serious problem in this country, and the fact that European countries have lower levels is entirely irrelevant - their overall social situation and history are different from ours, as is their geography. Gin control does not prevent attacks; France has had 2 in the last year and a half.

9/11 killed 2,996 people and injured 6,000. It would take 60 attacks comparable to this one to result in the same number of deaths; 120 to reach a comparable number of injured - except that mass shootings have rarely exceeded even 50% of this number, and most often result in less than 10 deaths.

Crime of some sort is always going to be with us, and we can never make it go away. More people are killed with knives each year than "assault weapons". The same applies to fists. The entire concept of "gun-violence" is a very subtle form of question-begging.

Lex Luthor wrote:
All these major terrorist incidents seem to hit close to home for me. I used to go to Orlando every summer to see family, I went to Paris for a month in 2014 (and went on a Thalys train), I live near Boston, I've been to the top of the WTC before planes crashed into it. It's a scary world out there. I kind of wish I could buy a gun to defend myself but it's too difficult in Massachusetts to get a license.


That's because you live in heavily-populated areas that are attractive for terrorists to attack.


*Frankly I find the alligator thing far more horrifying than any mass shooting. The idea of seeing your child dragged into the water and drowned by a wild animal is horrifying to the point of having nightmares about it; just thinking about it is worse than remembering that accident with dead aliens all over the place.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:49 am 
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Nothing on Orlando?


Donald Trump needs to vow to stop the immigration of alligators, and build a wall around the everglades -- that the gators will pay for.

What? Oh, different Orlando story.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:01 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Gun deaths are not a serious problem in this country

Well then. Glad that's sorted.


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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:06 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Gun deaths are not a serious problem in this country

Well then. Glad that's sorted.


It's amazing how many problems can be resolved if you do some basic math, rather than treat shocking anecdotes as evidence of trends or overall prevalence.

Also if you realize that dead is dead; you're not any more dead from a "gun death".

Truly challenging concepts, I know.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:35 am 
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One of my issues with "Gun Death" statistics is they generally include suicides. They should NEVER include suicides.

And Diamondeye has a point that "Gun Deaths" alone doesn't really address a potential problem if there is one -- murders are the problem. Guns should only be a talking point to the extent that they enable more murders. I'm not saying that they do or they don't. I believe both sides of the debate have a point when it comes to that argument - and the truth is likely somewhere in between. Easy availability of guns almost certainly enables more murders than there would be without guns. However, without guns, there would absolutely be more stabbings, beating deaths, blunt trauma, poisonings, etc.

This lack of rational discussion is not particular to the glade, but exists throughout America.

For instance, half-assed "gun control" measures that do nothing except inconvenience law-abiding gun owners really shouldn't even be looked at seriously by anyone, no matter what side of the debate they're on. For instance, "gun registries" cost lots of money, do nothing to stop crime, and don't even generally help the police solve crimes, since the vast majority of gun crimes are committed with unregistered or stolen weapons. Anything that doesn't make it significantly harder for criminals to get guns from illegal sources is unlikely to help and actually presents greater potential dangers - if you only prevent people from getting guns legally, then law abiding citizens will be the only ones without guns. The criminals will all still get them quite easily.

I've advocated before on this forum that the gun control issue is too politically charged - nobody is willing to entertain rational discussion on it. You've got one side advocating for a return to the wild west, and you've got the other side wanting utterly remove people's right to self defense, and no middle ground. Neither position is rational. They're both born of ideological stupidity.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:18 am 
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Talya wrote:
I've advocated before on this forum that the gun control issue is too politically charged - nobody is willing to entertain rational discussion on it. You've got one side advocating for a return to the wild west, and you've got the other side wanting utterly remove people's right to self defense, and no middle ground. Neither position is rational. They're both born of ideological stupidity.


They're definitely not both born of ideological stupidity. The gun rights side of the argument has hardened into their position because of the behavior of the pro-gun-control side of the argument.

The gun control lobby has never seen a gun control measure it didn't like and which it didn't think was a good idea, and any loosening of gun laws is met with wild claims of impending mayhem in the streets. Gun rights advocates may be in favor of certain gun control measures on the merits of those measures alone, but are forced to oppose them, because if they agree to them, the next time there is an incident, the previous "compromise" will become "extreme".

It's essentially the abortion debate in reverse; the NRA using basically the same messaging Planned Parenthood does. The left HATES this becuase they view it as cheating any time the right gets the better of them on messaging.

Also, they're all white redneck cowboy racists or some ****.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:44 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
They're definitely not both born of ideological stupidity. The gun rights side of the argument has hardened into their position because of the behavior of the pro-gun-control side of the argument.


That may or may not be true, but that's still being "born of ideological stupidity." It just would mean that the ideological stupidity on the left is responsible for creating the ideological stupidity on the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:50 am 
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Maajid Nawaz wrote:
LONDON — The atrocious attack in Orlando, Florida, was an act of ISIS-inspired jihadist terrorism that targeted gays. It must concern us all.

Before any of our assumed multiple identities, we are human beings first and foremost. You don’t have to be black to condemn racism, nor Jewish to condemn anti-Semitism, nor Muslim to condemn anti-Muslim bigotry, and you certainly don’t have to be gay to condemn the evil that just descended upon Orlando.

A puerile response by some of my fellow Muslims is to ask “why should we apologize for something that has nothing to do with us.” But this entirely misses the point.

Just as we Muslims expect solidarity from wider society against anti-Muslim bigotry and racism, likewise we must reciprocate solidarity toward victims of Islamist extremism. Just as we encourage others to actively denounce racism wherever they see it, so too must we actively denounce Islamist theocratic views wherever we find them.

Enough with the special pleading. Enough with the denial. Enough with the obfuscation.

The killer of Orlando was a homophobic Muslim extremist, inspired by an ideological take on my own religion, Islam. In just the first seven days of this holy month of Ramadan, various jihadists have carried out attacks in Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Damascus, Idlib, Beirut, Orlando, and now Paris.

This global jihadist insurgency threatens every corner of the world and has killed more Muslims than members any other faith. So why pretend it does not exist? Why shy away from calling it by name?

So far do many of us liberals go in denying the problem, that we’re happy to stigmatize other vulnerable minorities in the process. “He was not a Muslim, he was nothing but a mad lunatic,” we cry in exasperation. As if those with mental health issues are somehow automatically predisposed to murder, or immune to manipulation and exploitation by cynical Islamists and jihadists.

Then there’s that other old tactic to try and avoid discussing the Islamist ideology. “He wasn’t from the Muslim community,” we proclaim. “He was acting in isolation, a lone wolf.”

Apart from the fact that research highlights how incredibly rare it is for jihadists to act in a vacuum, we need look no further than the Orlando attacker Omar Mateen’s father, who praised the Taliban as “warriors” to realize this avoidance tactic for what it is. Clearly Omar Mateen had moved in an atmosphere that glorified jihadist ideology.

“But it must be foreign policy in Afghanistan,” we naively protest. Albeit better than China’s, Russia’s, Saudi Arabia’s, Iran’s and most other undemocratic countries in the world, yes our foreign and domestic policies have their flaws. But what did gays in the Pulse nightclub have to do with any of that? Or the gays that ISIS regularly throws off the tallest buildings in Syria, for that matter?
It is time that we liberals took the fabled red pill and accepted reality. Just as this clearly has something to do with outdated gun laws, and just as those laws need reform, this also has something to do with Islam, which also needs reform today. No other stance makes any sense.
Poll after poll of British Muslims has revealed statistically significant levels of homophobic opinion. A 2009 poll by Gallup found that 0 percent of Britain’s Muslims believed homosexual acts to be morally acceptable. Despite polling methodology, what previous polls have shown us time and again is more of the same. In a 2013 Pew poll Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked.

The latest ICM poll from April 2016 asked a slightly different question about whether being gay should be legal. Over half of British Muslims surveyed said they supported making homosexual acts illegal. It did not used to be like this, so what happened?

Liberals who claim that this has nothing to do with Islam today are being as unhelpful and as ignorant as conservatives who claim that this represents all of Islam. The problem so obviously has something to do with Islam. That something is Islamism, or the desire to impose any version of Islam over any society. Jihadism is the attempt to do so by force. This ideology of Islamism has been rising almost unchecked among Muslims for decades. It is a theocratic ideology, and theocracy should no longer have any place in the world today.

But it is as if we liberals will stoop to anything to avoid discussing ideology. We will initiate state sanctioned presidential kill lists and launch unaccountable targeted assassinations. Yet, no amount of drone strikes under Obama—at a rate that far exceeds Bush—will ever solve the problem. We cannot shoot our way out of an ideology. We cannot arrest our way out of an insurgency. Yes, law and war have their own place, but they will never solve the problem.

In the long run, only reducing the local appeal of this ideology will solve the problem. Whereas Islam today requires reform, the Islamist ideology must be intellectually terminated. To do so requires first acknowledging it exists, isolating it from Muslims, devising a strategy to challenge it, and then backing the voices that do.

As I argued in a TV debate with Fareed Zakaria, the danger of not doing so is twofold. Within the Muslim context, it is a betrayal of those liberal reforming Muslims who risk everything daily. These are feminist Muslims, gay Muslims, ex-Muslims, dissenting liberal and secular Muslim voices, persecuted minority sects among Muslims, the Ismailis, the Ahmedis and the Shia—all these different minorities within the minority of the Muslim community—they are immediately betrayed by our silence.

By shutting down the conversation about Islamist extremism we deprive them of the lexicon to deploy against those who are attempting to silence their progressive efforts within their own communities. We surrender their identity of Islam to the extremists.

The second danger is in the non-Muslim context. What happens if we don’t name the Islamist ideology and distinguish it from Islam? We leave a void for the vast majority of Americans—who are unaware of the nuances in this debate—to be filled by Donald Trump and the Populist Right. They will go on to blame all versions of Islam and every Muslim, and their frustration at not being able to talk about the problem will give in to rage, as it has done. By refusing to discuss it, we only increase the hysteria. Like “he who must not be named”—the Voldemort Effect, I call it—we increase the fear.

So this is my appeal to President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and to all liberals and Muslims, for humanity’s sake let’s stop playing politics with evil. Just as this so obviously has something to do with lax gun laws, it so clearly has something to do with Islam. Hillary Clinton nearly conceded as much after these recent attacks. But liberals must own this debate, not merely appear to be defensively reacting to Trump’s agenda.

This September will mark 15 years since the 9/11 attacks, and we still haven’t devised a strategy to address Islamist extremism, let alone identified voices who can do so globally. Not al Qaeda, not ISIS, nor any other theocratic jihadist group that may emerge in the future, but a strategy that recognizes we are in the middle of a Cold War against theocracy. If we refuse to isolate, name and shame Islamist extremism, from fear of increasing anti-Muslim bigotry, we only increase anti-Muslim bigotry. If the rise of Trump has not convinced us of this yet, then nothing will.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... slims.html

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:54 am 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
They're definitely not both born of ideological stupidity. The gun rights side of the argument has hardened into their position because of the behavior of the pro-gun-control side of the argument.


That may or may not be true, but that's still being "born of ideological stupidity." It just would mean that the ideological stupidity on the left is responsible for creating the ideological stupidity on the right.


That calls for an entirely different solution.

Again, much like abortion if the anti-abortion crowd would just accept that there is going to be a certain amount of legal abortion - because the alternative is illegal abortions and that's bad - the pro-choice crowd could calm down, bargain in good faith, and not have to worry about being salami-sliced to a de facto ban.

The same applies here. The left needs to stop trying to argue the 2nd Amendment doesn't mean what it means or enact wholesale, senseless bans.

Once that's off the table, reasonable discussion on things like background checks and due process is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:45 pm 
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It also doesn't help that it's basically impossible to actually have an informed opinion about the topic anymore. You can't trust basically any of the studies that are done, because they're invariably funded by one interest group or another and the conclusions are more likely than not to be outright fabrications.

For example, I once tried to see if I could figure out if guns actually saved more innocent people than they killed. I figured you could get a decent estimate by finding the ratio of crimes that actually resulted in death or serious injury to the total number of crimes where it would be legal to use a gun in self defense. Then, take that number and multiply by the statistic for total number of times a gun was actually legally used in eself-defense and you've got a decent ballpark estimate on how much death and serious injury was prevented by gun ownership. As it turns out, it's actually impossible to get a reliable number for that last statistic. According to the Brady campaign, this number is 67,700 per year. According to the NRA, it's 3.1 million. So, only two orders of magnitude difference, and both statistics claimed to have extensive studies backing them up.


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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:13 am 
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Yes defensive gun use is hard to determine as most of it isn't reported. One has to rely on survey data which is easy to manipulate if you want to. The realistic stuff I've seen was 1.8 million - 2.5 million events annually. The larger figure was from one of Kleck's studies, the smaller one done by some government org in the Clinton era.

The thing is I'm just tired of people reacting instantly to this in a political way - there are people screaming that doing anything is better than doing nothing. No, that's not true and the worst time to make a policy decision is when emotions are running high in a presidential election cycle. On top the ones screaming the loudest tend to be the most sure of their position while being the least informed. And people wonder why I don't like democratic system. Let the families mourn and people grieve in their own way. A week, just a week doesn't seem like too much to ask before you talk about muslims or guns or what your religion thinks of gays.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:25 am 
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I like what Howard Stern said about it.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... ttack.html

Quote:
Howard Stern gave his two cents on the gun control debate following the Orlando terrorist attack Sunday night.

"I'm so upset about Orlando and what went down," Stern said on his show Wednesday. "But I can't believe these people would come out afterward and their answer to Orlando is to take away guns from the public. It's f----ing mind-blowing to me."

Stern then went on to make an analogy comparing the public to sheep, the terrorists to wolves and the military and police to sheepdogs.

"Now, let’s say I walked up literally to a sheep herd, and they know that every night the wolves pick off a couple of them,” Stern said. “What if I went up to the sheep and I said, ‘You wanna have a shot at the wolves? I’m gonna give you a pistol. You can actually even the playing field with these wolves whose fangs are out — you could shoot them and save your family.'"

Stern said he's anti-violence and admits that he couldn't "hurt a fly" if confronted and labels himself as a sheep. But, he said, "there are such horrible monsters in our world."

"The wolves are always plotting. They’ll use boxcutters. They’ll use an airplane to fly it right into a building. They don’t need AR-15s."

The outspoken SiriusXm personality said he's not for "taking away people’s rights," adding he thinks "the answer doesn't lie in taking any kind of ability of the sheep to protect themselves from the wolves. I wish it was that simple."


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:18 pm 
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Even if you really could prevent a terrorist from getting their hands on guns, you can't stop them from killing people if they are determined to do it.

You can kill lots of people with a vehicle into a crowd, or by poisoning a water or food supply, or crashing a plane into a building, etc... and even if you took all of the ways to kills large groups of people, you can still be a terrorist and terrorize people in other ways that don't involve mass killing. Public executions might be one possibility, maybe go for max effect and torture some young children, perhaps burning them alive on video and publish that for everyone to see...

Fine if you want to take away peoples guns. If you think that will make the world a better place, go for it.

Just don't delude yourself into thinking that doing that will make people that hate you stop hating you, or prevent them from terrorizing you if that is what they choose to do.

Edit to add:
I'm not a gun advocate. Don't own one, never owned one, and don't want to own one. However, do feel fairly strongly about my right as an American citizen to own one if I were to change my mind. I just think it's completely idiotic to think that eliminating guns (which is IMPOSSIBLE) is going to prevent terrorism, or even make it more difficult to terrorize. It wont.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:32 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Edit to add:
I'm not a gun advocate. Don't own one, never owned one, and don't want to own one. However, do feel fairly strongly about my right as an American citizen to own one if I were to change my mind. I just think it's completely idiotic to think that eliminating guns (which is IMPOSSIBLE) is going to prevent terrorism, or even make it more difficult to terrorize. It wont.


For what it matters (which it doesn't, as I'm a Canadian), you and I are on the same page here. I'm somewhat in favor of an armed populace, even though I have no desire to own a gun myself. I don't believe any form of partial gun control would help prevent violence, and complete gun control is impossible.

(Incidentally, I also like the concept of concealed carry permits. They protect everyone, including people like you and me who have no desire to own a gun, because those who might assault us have no idea if we might be armed.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:28 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Fine if you want to take away peoples guns. If you think that will make the world a better place, go for it.

Just don't delude yourself into thinking that doing that will make people that hate you stop hating you, or prevent them from terrorizing you if that is what they choose to do.


The thing is that most gun control advocates really just can't conceive that it wouldn't prevent terror or reduce killings, and ultimately really don't care. Gun control is about gun control for the sake of gun control; it is its own objective and all the nonsense about gun crime rates etc are really just justifications. Gun control advocates just fundamentally have a problem with other people having weapons.

This is why you see them deploying silly arguments about how the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect an individual right to own a gun. What other purpose it might serve is inconceivable (the idea that it protects the right to join a militia or for the militia to have guns is preposterous; Congress already had the power to regulate militias before the BOR was passed, so obviously they could exist, and what would be the point of a gun-less militia?) but that doesn't matter. Some way to get rid of it or render it irrelevant because its standing in the way of progress - and progress is gun control for the sake of gun control.

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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:53 am 
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You guys will be happy to know that the anti-gun reporting in the wake of this has been pretty impressively incompetent. Seriously, this is a major newspaper, how does this get past the editors? "I'm going to act like a smarmy passive-aggressive ******* to literally every gun person I interact with, then when they actually spend money in order to dig up a pretext for not doing business with me, I'm going to blame a secret shadow conspiracy for this outcome."


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 Post subject: Re: Nothing on Orlando?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Look at his first few paragraphs: He describes the occupants of the gun store in terms where the between-the-lines disdain and condescension is palpable, right up to the part where he talks about wanting to convey "manly ease".

That's what it really is about - his stereotype of gun owners as dumber, more poorly educated, and more morally inferior he is, and his view that their guns are just grown-up toys that they own to assuage their egos. His attitude is that he's superior to "those people" (who are almost certainly far smarter, more educated, and more responsible than he believes; middle-aged guys with guns can be engineers, lawyers, and dentists as easily as truckers and even if they are truckers that makes them neither dumb nor irresponsible, and at least as far as guns go far more informed and educated than he is) and he believes that his superiority and the merits of his arguments are simply self-evidently true.

His editors most likely share this attitude. The gun control lobby is at least as much about punishing the gun-owning constituency for being people the left doesn't like as it actually is about guns. That's why you get opposition to harsher sentences for "gun crimes" from Democrats. Because it might "disproportionately affect minorities." Never mind the tacit admission of that stance, it reveals what this is really about - it's about overlaying the stereotype of the "gun owner" onto that of "straight white male" as part of the identity politics tactic.

As for his buttmad in the last paragraph, it doesn't take a genius to figure out he had no interest in learning anything. He just wanted "I fired an assault weapon" street cred and to crow about how easy it was for him - alcoholic and alleged wife-beater - to buy a gun. He didn't get to, but we can't allow that to detract from the narrative, so we'll just use the usual appeal-to-motive arguments. It's no different than saying the "real reason" is racism, sexism, etc.

It also reflects the sense of entitlement of the professional press to any information they want, and then to frame it however they want. The press in general needs regular reminders that Freedom of the Press entitles them to write and publish; it doesn't obligate anyone else to accommodate their requests for information - least of all private citizens and businesses.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


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