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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:47 pm 
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I think you two are huntin' the same hog.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
My point is still valid. The government overseeing certain matters through various agencies or committees is hardly the same thing as micromanaging it. Come work in the commercial nuclear industry. They don't just say "be safe". They've set up an entire agency which in turn influences other agencies (which aren't even technically government sanctioned) to tell you exactly what is considered safe. Except, instead of helping you be safe, they write regulatory guides in a vague way such that the fault is always the operator's no matter what happens. The levels of redundancy and caution are overkill.


Uh.. yes.. I don't believe I was disagreeing with that. I was pointing out that I was talking abotu something else.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:23 am 
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So hey, did you hear? The US authorities knew about him and were going to pick him up in Detroit.

WASHINGTON — U.S. border-security officials learned of intelligence about the alleged extremist links of the Christmas Day airline bomber as he was in the air en route to Detroit and had decided to question him when he landed, officials said in new disclosures Wednesday.



Oh, and they took his visa away yesterday. Doesn't than make you all feel better?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:29 am 
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Wow. Just... Wow.

No, we don't need to detain and question the guy before he flies in a potential weapon that he's trying to take over or destroy (causing a crash that can damage/harm a lot depending on where it lands) until after he's flown over half the country.

/facepalm

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:31 am 
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Mookhow wrote:
I think Monte's talking about this guy. Situation seems similar, terrorist dumbass who tried to blow up a plane but failed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:35 am 
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I found this article to be pretty good:

http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/worl ... tle-bother

edit: Put the article in a spoiler tag since its long because of too many carriage returns.

Spoiler:
Quote:
The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

While North America's airports groan under the weight of another sea-change in security protocols, one word keeps popping out of the mouths of experts: Israelification.

That is, how can we make our airports more like Israel's, which deal with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience.

"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.

"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."

That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.

Despite facing dozens of potential threats each day, the security set-up at Israel's largest hub, Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, has not been breached since 2002, when a passenger mistakenly carried a handgun onto a flight. How do they manage that?

"The first thing you do is to look at who is coming into your airport," said Sela.

The first layer of actual security that greets travellers at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport is a roadside check. All drivers are stopped and asked two questions: How are you? Where are you coming from?

"Two benign questions. The questions aren't important. The way people act when they answer them is," Sela said.

Officers are looking for nervousness or other signs of "distress" — behavioural profiling. Sela rejects the argument that profiling is discriminatory.

"The word 'profiling' is a political invention by people who don't want to do security," he said. "To us, it doesn't matter if he's black, white, young or old. It's just his behaviour. So what kind of privacy am I really stepping on when I'm doing this?"

Once you've parked your car or gotten off your bus, you pass through the second and third security perimeters.

Armed guards outside the terminal are trained to observe passengers as they move toward the doors, again looking for odd behaviour. At Ben Gurion's half-dozen entrances, another layer of security are watching. At this point, some travellers will be randomly taken aside, and their person and their luggage run through a magnometer.

"This is to see that you don't have heavy metals on you or something that looks suspicious," said Sela.

You are now in the terminal. As you approach your airline check-in desk, a trained interviewer takes your passport and ticket. They ask a series of questions: Who packed your luggage? Has it left your side?

"The whole time, they are looking into your eyes — which is very embarrassing. But this is one of the ways they figure out if you are suspicious or not. It takes 20, 25 seconds," said Sela.

Lines are staggered. People are not allowed to bunch up into inviting targets for a bomber who has gotten this far.

At the check-in desk, your luggage is scanned immediately in a purpose-built area. Sela plays devil's advocate — what if you have escaped the attention of the first four layers of security, and now try to pass a bag with a bomb in it?

"I once put this question to Jacques Duchesneau (the former head of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority): say there is a bag with play-doh in it and two pens stuck in the play-doh. That is 'Bombs 101' to a screener. I asked Ducheneau, 'What would you do?' And he said, 'Evacuate the terminal.' And I said, 'Oh. My. God.'

"Take Pearson. Do you know how many people are in the terminal at all times? Many thousands. Let's say I'm (doing an evacuation) without panic — which will never happen. But let's say this is the case. How long will it take? Nobody thought about it. I said, 'Two days.'"

A screener at Ben-Gurion has a pair of better options.

First, the screening area is surrounded by contoured, blast-proof glass that can contain the detonation of up to 100 kilos of plastic explosive. Only the few dozen people within the screening area need be removed, and only to a point a few metres away.

Second, all the screening areas contain 'bomb boxes'. If a screener spots a suspect bag, he/she is trained to pick it up and place it in the box, which is blast proof. A bomb squad arrives shortly and wheels the box away for further investigation.

"This is a very small simple example of how we can simply stop a problem that would cripple one of your airports," Sela said.

Five security layers down: you now finally arrive at the only one which Ben-Gurion Airport shares with Pearson — the body and hand-luggage check.

"But here it is done completely, absolutely 180 degrees differently than it is done in North America," Sela said.

"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."

That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.

This doesn't begin to cover the off-site security net that failed so spectacularly in targeting would-be Flight 253 bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab — intelligence. In Israel, Sela said, a coordinated intelligence gathering operation produces a constantly evolving series of threat analyses and vulnerability studies.

"There is absolutely no intelligence and threat analysis done in Canada or the United States," Sela said. "Absolutely none."

But even without the intelligence, Sela maintains, Abdulmutallab would not have gotten past Ben Gurion Airport's behavioural profilers.

So. Eight years after 9/11, why are we still so reactive, so un-Israelified?

Working hard to dampen his outrage, Sela first blames our leaders, and then ourselves.

"We have a saying in Hebrew that it's much easier to look for a lost key under the light, than to look for the key where you actually lost it, because it's dark over there. That's exactly how (North American airport security officials) act," Sela said. "You can easily do what we do. You don't have to replace anything. You have to add just a little bit — technology, training. But you have to completely change the way you go about doing airport security. And that is something that the bureaucrats have a problem with. They are very well enclosed in their own concept."

And rather than fear, he suggests that outrage would be a far more powerful spur to provoking that change.

"Do you know why Israelis are so calm? We have brutal terror attacks on our civilians and still, life in Israel is pretty good. The reason is that people trust their defence forces, their police, their response teams and the security agencies. They know they're doing a good job. You can't say the same thing about Americans and Canadians. They don't trust anybody," Sela said. "But they say, 'So far, so good'. Then if something happens, all hell breaks loose and you've spent eight hours in an airport. Which is ridiculous. Not justifiable

"But, what can you do? Americans and Canadians are nice people and they will do anything because they were told to do so and because they don't know any different."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:47 am 
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Very nice, Screeling. Wish someone with authority would read that and act on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:02 am 
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You're just saying that because its from Toronto...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:07 am 
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As a frequent air traveler, that is a fantastic article and I wish the system was more like that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:33 am 
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I'm not so sure that would work here. The US is large, very non-homegenous. Our culture wouldn't work with that. People are agitated and distressed looking all the time at airports. And not for security or anything to do with the airport (though that doesn't help). Here, we're raised to be agitated, especially those who lives have led them to a career with significant amounts of business travel. The only exception was when I worked at AB and you could charge all the beer you wanted at Airport bars, then flying was a pleasure, unless you got too drunk to fly.

I don't see the prototypical American business traveler personality being able to mesh with this type of security. We're (the typical business traveler) distressed and agitated about everything, all the time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:19 pm 
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If you take away the security stress, the prototypical business traveler would stop looking so agitated and distressed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
I'm not so sure that would work here. The US is large, very non-homegenous. Our culture wouldn't work with that. People are agitated and distressed looking all the time at airports. And not for security or anything to do with the airport (though that doesn't help). Here, we're raised to be agitated, especially those who lives have led them to a career with significant amounts of business travel. The only exception was when I worked at AB and you could charge all the beer you wanted at Airport bars, then flying was a pleasure, unless you got too drunk to fly.

I don't see the prototypical American business traveler personality being able to mesh with this type of security. We're (the typical business traveler) distressed and agitated about everything, all the time.

You don't know anything!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:08 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
If you take away the security stress, the prototypical business traveler would stop looking so agitated and distressed.


I don't agree. Being away from ones home (particularly for weeks at a time), living out of a suitcase, eating at restaurants etc. is an OK lifestyle for some, some of the time, but it grows incredibly agitating, especially when one is summoned to do so on a moments notice.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:01 pm 
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If fly proved just too unsafe, people would find other means or not fly at all. TSA is a waste of money.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Yes. I was talking about Richard Reed, the shoe bomber. You know, the second terrorist attack on our soil that the Bush administration missed? The guy who got on a plane with explosive material secreted on his person for the purposes of blowing the plane up.

Our regular court system handled that case. He was arrested, questioned, charged, and convicted, and now sits in one of our prisons. No republicans at the time were talking about how unsafe that made us. No one on this board criticized bush for not making a statement about that case for *six days*.

And here we are, with a liberal president in office. And the only difference between this situation and that situation (including missing the warning signs), is that this bomber had his explosive material secreted near his junk.

So really, when people try to use this situation to criticize this administration while simultaneously ignoring the *SAME EXACT THING* that happened under Bush's watch, I find their outrage to be less than compelling.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:38 am 
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Was it honestly that hard to tell my post was a joke?


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