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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:10 am 
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If you are a Star Wars fan, go see this movie.

If you ever wondered how an X-wing would perform against an AT-AT walker, go see this movie.

If you ever wondered how a group of rag-tag freedom fighters could stand against a tyrannical and oppressive galactic threat....go see this movie.

Also, if you ever wanted to see Darth Vader go toe to toe with dozens of rebel soldiers, armed with only a lightsaber and the force, you should DEFINITELY see this movie.

Saw this last night, and can't wait to go see it again, on Sunday. There were nods to the original trilogy. There were some really funny moments. There were some sad moments. And there were some moments that feel like they were made just for the huge fans of the Expanded Universe, like me. People who read the comics, and the novels, and played the video games, that told the stories of people other than the main cast - the role-players and the grunts of the armies on both sides of the conflict. If that's you, too, then do yourself a favor, and go see this movie!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:27 pm 
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Seeing it Saturday. As this is a Spoilerific thread, I shall now exit, pursued by a wampa.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Unbelievably good. Fits like a puzzle piece, perfectly cut to fit into a galaxy far, far away.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:28 pm 
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I'm not ready to say much about spoilers yet, but i have these comments:

1. The digital recreations of the many characters from 1977 are perfect. Utterly and completely perfect.

2. Disney has far more respect for Lucas's original material than Lucas himself ever had. This movie was meticulously crafted to fit into episode IV with exact precision.

3. "General Syndula" does some nice flying with the Ghost in the big space battle, if you're looking for it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:54 am 
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Talya wrote:
2. Disney has far more respect for Lucas's original material than Lucas himself ever had. This movie was meticulously crafted to fit into episode IV with exact precision.


A sad truth.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:02 am 
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Seeing Y-Wings doing what Y-Wings were meant to do, was very nice. I think the pacing seemed a bit off, but that's about the only minor complaint I have. This is the movie I wanted the Prequels to be, when I first heard that Lucas was doing them 20 years ago.

I have a friend who said that this movie may be his favorite star wars movie, even above the OT. While I think it's fine for him to believe that, I don't think I could say that in that extreme. Part of the reason why this movie is so good is because it stands upon the groundwork of the OT. Take away the OT and it remains a good movie but it's not nearly as elevated.

A comment on Reddit that I thought was pretty good: "Lucas Disneyfied Star Wars and Disney fixed it." Seems about right.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:17 am 
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Numbuk wrote:
I have a friend who said that this movie may be his favorite star wars movie, even above the OT. While I think it's fine for him to believe that, I don't think I could say that in that extreme. Part of the reason why this movie is so good is because it stands upon the groundwork of the OT. Take away the OT and it remains a good movie but it's not nearly as elevated.


Prior to this movie, my favorite Star Wars movie was ESB. ESB is nothing without the original, it stands on the groundwork laid by Star Wars (1977). --i won't call it A New Hope or episode IV in this case.

Rogue One has taken over ESB's place in my ranking. You are correct that without the original movies, it is greatly diminished. One of Rogue One's greatest strengths is its seamless, unforced, natural-feeling continuity. But not just from the original trilogy. It ties in closely to the prequel trilogy, and even the animated Clone Wars and Rebels TV shows. It pulls in material from new canon books and comics. It answers plot questions we didn't know we had. ("Oh ****... That's how Luke got to be Red 5!") It shows us people and places we haven't seen for decades, in absolutely perfect detail. Of course it relies on what came before, and in so doing surpasses them all. It doesn't diminish the older material in any way. It elevates it even higher, and that is how it succeeds.

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A comment on Reddit that I thought was pretty good: "Lucas Disneyfied Star Wars and Disney fixed it." Seems about right.


Yup.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:28 pm 
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While I have no problems with General Syndula and the Ghost making an appearance here, I DO raise issue with the appearance of Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan -- Its a galaxy of trillions of life forms, what are the odds of this pair running into people dealing with the Death Star plans twice in two days? Felt like cheap fan service.

I'm not sure I'd consider the CGI on Tarkin to be 'perfect' --it hit the Uncanny Valley for me. Leia and Garven Dreis though were excellent.

I have a minor issue with Vader's gloves. (and his weird hooked finger gesture) but the gloves seem padded strangely (different than they appear in Ep. IV) Of course there is nothing saying he doesn't have multiple pairs of gloves, but something seemed off about it.... but I'm a SW geek, I notice crap like that.

All and all, I enjoyed it every much.


BUT

I dont think this will capture the imaginations of the youth the way Star Wars did. None of these people are the heroes we wanted to be. (and their fate doesnt make us really want to be them either) I don't see kids wanting to enjoy this movie; thats fine for us adults who already want to be Jedi, or smugglers, or bounty hunters, but this movie wont bring new children into the franchise.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:36 pm 
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Talya wrote:
One of Rogue One's greatest strengths is its seamless, unforced, natural-feeling continuity. But not just from the original trilogy. It ties in closely to the prequel trilogy, and even the animated Clone Wars and Rebels TV shows. It pulls in material from new canon books and comics. It answers plot questions we didn't know we had. ("Oh ****... That's how Luke got to be Red 5!") It shows us people and places we haven't seen for decades, in absolutely perfect detail. Of course it relies on what came before, and in so doing surpasses them all. It doesn't diminish the older material in any way. It elevates it even higher, and that is how it succeeds.

The old EU answered those questions, too. And in some cases, more satisfactorily -- the Legends "why was Luke Red 5" had the normal Red 5 pilot ill at the time of the Battle of Yavin, which is more plausible in that it explains why there's a pilot-less X-Wing lying around waiting for an untested kid to be given the stick on the voucher of an old buddy. The new canon doesn't explain where they got the replacement X-Wing, or why it was deemed wise to bump another pilot from their X-Wing to give to Luke, it only explains why the call-sign was available.

Also, to take issue with your statement up-thread -- AFAICT, only one, maybe two of the classic characters were digital (I can't tell if the actress credited as Leia was used with makeup or as a mo-cap actress, and haven't seen anything written on it yet). Red and Gold Leader were both archive B-roll or alternate take footage from A New Hope that didn't get used in the final edit; that's been reported on by The Independent, I think it was. (Also, Red and Gold Leader are only credited as their original actors, unlike Tarkin and Leia.) I'm not sure whether the difference between "Thanks" to Carrie Fisher and "Special Acknowledgement" to Peter Cushing is that Cushing is dead, or that Cushing was a digitally modelled actor and Fisher wasn't.

In any event, I liked this better than The Force Awakens, in that I appreciate that they actually took the risk of making a new movie, instead of assigned new characters to the same scenes and action beats. This felt like an original film in the Star Wars universe, rather than A New Hope with the serial numbers filed off to pawn it off on a new generation. However, it still had a fair number of flaws that bothered me a bit while watching. It might be argued that I'm holding it to a higher standard than I did/do the prequels, and my response would be that if I am, it's only because it aims to match the tone of the OT (insofar as it relies on familiar spacecraft, a similar design approach to environments and props -- adopting what we've come to accept as the Rebellion-era lived-in look vs. the Republic-era shiny new aesthetic, if you will) more than the prequels did, so it begs an apples-to-apples comparison moreso than the prequels did.

First off, even though I knew it wasn't going to have an opening crawl, it felt wrong to go straight from "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." into action. It galled me, and served to call attention to the lack of a crawl to tease text and then deny me any text of substance to set the stage.

Secondly, I feel like it could have used some more breaks in the action. Star Wars, and especially the OT, is great in that there are moments to breathe and develop some interaction between the characters that isn't reliant on an imminent crisis. Empire has scenes aboard the Falcon in the asteroid field and training sequences with Yoda, as well as an interlude on Bespin and conversations in hallways at Echo Base. Star Wars has quiet conversations with the droids on the farm, and in Obi-Wan's hut, and so on. This could have benefited from a little more character development at the second tier of the ensemble, the recognizeable cameo characters like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa, and the supporting characters on the Council.

That segues into my next point -- it's great to show me a bunch of detail about the daring, improvised raid that stole the plans and got them into Leia's hands, but there was an opportunity here to characterize and reveal to the audience the conflicts going on in the Alliance to Restore the Republic that could have been really cool, and would offer some foundation to really dig into it more meatily with future standalones. It's been decided to do a story about the unsung heroes who don't make it, and that's great, it's a new take and a niche that hasn't been explored officially... but if you're going to make a movie about a bunch of characters for whom it very quickly becomes obvious they won't survive the movie, then you should at least take some opportunity to develop the ones who exist at the edges of the story, but will survive to exist at the edges of other stories. Treat the Bails and Mon Mothmas and Dodonnas as the season-long plot that each episode devotes a couple minutes towards advancing and developing in a modern episodic-format TV series. In addition, we got an ensemble cast of heroes, but the movie only ever made me like or care about two, maybe three of them. I couldn't even come up with Baze's name after the movie, and had to look it up, that's how little attention was paid, and how little I cared, about him. I feel like the ensemble cast could easily have been one or two characters smaller, and it would have been a stronger film.

Ultimately, it felt like a very well-designed Star Wars roleplaying campaign. This was put into the sharpest focus when Bodhi declares that they have to connect the ship into the facility's communication system mid-battle. I literally sat there in my seat and exclaimed to myself "Aww, the GM gave the pilot something to do so he's not just watching the battle for three hours this session!"

Finally, the Empire came off as incredibly incompetent. I'm cool with the whole "our coerced designer built in a flaw" precept, and as far as the impetus for making this movie being to defend and counter the whole viral Internet video about the guy who designed the Death Star, it succeeds there. But every time the Empire -- who just fought and won a war less than two decades ago, so you'd think they still have veterans in positions of command -- needs to react to acts of war, they wait about ten minutes dumbfounded, and then seem to not have any kind of plan or readiness when they do come up with the impetus to respond. They even lampshade this when Krennic, who is gaping in shocked awe at the act of sabotage and breached security unfolding directly in front of them along with everybody else, shouts "Do something, you idiots!" How sealing off an incursion from escape and potential reinforcement wasn't the first act (unless it was to deploy TIEs from the Star Destroyers and THEN seal off the shield), I have no idea. Even civilian institutions today have as part of their security protocols "seal off the building while your internal security deals with it" in their emergency response plans.

Super-minor quibble: Mid-movie, Bail tells Mon Mothma he's going to send Leia out on a Very Important mission. Great! Then, at the end of the movie, it's revealed that instead of having left to, you know, do that, she (and the military asset, the Tantive IV) are sitting around docked on the flagship instead of actively participating in the fight that has all available hands on deck. I was actually a little disappointed when Admiral not-Ackbar called for the hammerhead corvette (my real-time reaction was "oh, are we giving Corellian corvettes a new name? Okay) and it didn't turn out to be the Tantive IV getting called in to run the blockade with the data. That said, I was thoroughly entertained by using it as a tugboat on the disabled ISD, so whatever. But having Leia's ship present and actively participating would have made more sense than having it docked in a hangar bay, and would have presented it as Leia left on the mission for Bail and then got recalled by the all-hands call that went out.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:57 pm 
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The hammerhead Corvettes were in SW Rebels already (based on the design of the hammerhead cruisers in KotOR), so I knew what to expect when he called for the hammerhead corvette.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Talya wrote:
The hammerhead Corvettes were in SW Rebels already (based on the design of the hammerhead cruisers in KotOR), so I knew what to expect when he called for the hammerhead corvette.

Yeah, once I saw it respond I was like "Oh, is that what they're called?" They've probably named them on Rebels but it didn't really register.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:36 pm 
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I assumed Leia, gold leader and red leader were CGI like Tarkin. Evidently only Tarkin was. If I didn't know 39 years had passed, I wouldn't have known Tarkin wasn't flesh and blood.

People complaining about his CGI have also made the mistake of complaining about Leia's CGI, and she didn't have any. At this point, they've almost perfected it. There's no uncanny valley left. What there is is the mental knowledge that the person you are seeing on screen cannot exist and then people making up reasons it didn't look right to them, to match the cognitive dissonance one feels when seeing new footage of a man who has been dead 22 years. He looked more real than Peter Cushing did (thanks to film quality improvements.)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:59 pm 
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Leia may not have been a product of CGI, but she was still flirting with the edges of the uncanny valley, to me -- if you look at pictures of the actress, it's clear she was heavily made-up for the role, and I think that's what produced that sensation. She's just approaching the uncanny valley from the other direction.

For Tarkin, I can't say for sure whether I would've noticed it without the knowledge that Cushing is dead and would have been a lich-like presence by now even if he weren't, but I definitely got the sense that his mouth and cheekbones weren't quite right. It was amazing work, to be sure, but if you watch the film and then go right home and watch his live performance as Tarkin, the difference is palpable.

I will admit I was both surprised that they made the creative decision to show Leia's face -- the first couple camera angles that showed her from behind had me nodding to myself at how clever they were being with the framing, and then they cut to her face -- and surprised at how well they pulled it off. I'd be perfectly happy to watch some side adventures of the fleeing Rebel Alliance's path from Yavin IV to Hoth with what they've shown between the CGI reconstruction of Tarkin, the young-Fisher double for Leia, and the archive footage for Red and Gold Leaders.

I realize that's probably outside of their current plans, as I suspect such stories would be tricky to do without straying too close to "Episode N" territory rather than staying in the "A Star Wars Story" vein, but I'd welcome and watch it (and, granted, probably criticize it in places), especially if they pull off the Han Solo spinoff well. I'd love to see what had Han procrastinating paying off Jabba for three years (after having loaded up the Falcon with his reward at Yavin!), for instance, and to see the encounter with that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell... Not to mention, somebody's got to be able to write some great material surrounding Luke's adventures with Rogue Squadron in that intervening time.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:03 pm 
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Well, I guess we can all rest assured that an AT-AT can, indeed, shrug off a shoulder-fired missile.

Other than that, it was **** awesome.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:07 pm 
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Bothans were spies on Death Star 2, not Death Star 1


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:28 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I dont think this will capture the imaginations of the youth the way Star Wars did. None of these people are the heroes we wanted to be. (and their fate doesnt make us really want to be them either) I don't see kids wanting to enjoy this movie; thats fine for us adults who already want to be Jedi, or smugglers, or bounty hunters, but this movie wont bring new children into the franchise.

Totally agree with this. I really, really enjoyed Rogue One - much more than TFA - but Rogue One was a movie for Star Wars fans who grew up with the OT, already loved the SW universe, and wanted to see some of the grittier background stories in it, whereas TFA was the kind of "shiny hero of destiny" movie designed to bring in a new generation of young fans.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:59 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Super-minor quibble: Mid-movie, Bail tells Mon Mothma he's going to send Leia out on a Very Important mission. Great! Then, at the end of the movie, it's revealed that instead of having left to, you know, do that, she (and the military asset, the Tantive IV) are sitting around docked on the flagship instead of actively participating in the fight that has all available hands on deck. I was actually a little disappointed when Admiral not-Ackbar called for the hammerhead corvette (my real-time reaction was "oh, are we giving Corellian corvettes a new name? Okay) and it didn't turn out to be the Tantive IV getting called in to run the blockade with the data. That said, I was thoroughly entertained by using it as a tugboat on the disabled ISD, so whatever. But having Leia's ship present and actively participating would have made more sense than having it docked in a hangar bay, and would have presented it as Leia left on the mission for Bail and then got recalled by the all-hands call that went out.


Keep in mind that we never actually saw at what point Tantive IV docked with the flagship. It was quite the mad scramble there to react once the alliance command realized what was happening; the Admiral evidently just said "**** it" and went on his own, so there's no telling what sort of offscreen re-routing Bail Oragana had to do to get the Tantive there at all. Also, if that's the designated ship to get the plans out, and has Leia Organa on it, having it dock was probably the best bet rather than risk it for the sake of the relatively paltry firepower of a single corvette.

As for the Admiral, the Mon Calmari provide the bulk of the Rebel Alliance heavy combatants, so it rather makes sense that they make up the bulk of the Admiralty as well. This guy only had a single heavy ship though, with some frigates and corvettes; it was obviously not the entire alliance fleet.

Also, it was nice to see the Y-Wing finally get a moment of glory.

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Keeping in mind that while I like Star Wars, I like them as just movies, and thus have no nostalgia for or engagement with the "Extended Universe" (Knights of the Old Republic notwithstanding, which I like more as game rather than specifically as a piece of Star Wars miscellanea, and I've mostly forgotten the several EU novels I read as a kid).

I really liked it, though mostly for the setting. The characters left me relatively apathetic, outside of maybe K-2SO, and that's a large part of why The Force Awakens succeeded wildly for me: I immediately fell in love with the characters, and wanted to spend more time with them (indeed, they were magnetic, and I kept wishing the old guard would get the hell out of the way and let the new characters have more screen time). Here, I was indeed enamored with the aesthetic and setting of the piece, moreso than any other Star Wars film, but that's the difference between me overlooking any flaws TFA had, and being more critical of Rogue One.

Putting the Wars back in Star Wars was an admirable tack to take, and gave the film its own flavor, as well as opening up a brave new world for filmmakers to go nuts with future "anthology" Star Wars films (I adore the idea of using Star Wars as a backdrop for auteurist storytellers to work their magic).

That Darth Vader scene at the end was **** badass and worth the price of admission alone.

A bit surprised Disney had the balls to kill off e'rybody in a Star Wars movie, though. I'm supportive of it; I'm just surprised, if for no reason other than merchandising.

Did it sound to anyone else like Wallace Shawn overdubbed a couple of Ben Mendelsohn's lines? I liked the character of Orson Krennic (he actually made the most lasting impression on me of all of the new characters), but his voice went a bit Vizzini at times. "Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Neimoidia' - but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against an Imperial when death is on the line'!"


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FarSky wrote:
Did it sound to anyone else like Wallace Shawn overdubbed a couple of Ben Mendelsohn's lines? I liked the character of Orson Krennic (he actually made the most lasting impression on me of all of the new characters), but his voice went a bit Vizzini at times. "Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Neimoidia' - but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against an Imperial when death is on the line'!"


And now i know what diet pepsi in the nose feels like.

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FarSky wrote:
That Darth Vader scene at the end was **** badass and worth the price of admission alone.


Yeah, that was a good bit. Right before he breathes, I was thinking "I wonder if Vader is about to..."

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:02 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Super-minor quibble: Mid-movie, Bail tells Mon Mothma he's going to send Leia out on a Very Important mission. Great! Then, at the end of the movie, it's revealed that instead of having left to, you know, do that, she (and the military asset, the Tantive IV) are sitting around docked on the flagship instead of actively participating in the fight that has all available hands on deck. I was actually a little disappointed when Admiral not-Ackbar called for the hammerhead corvette (my real-time reaction was "oh, are we giving Corellian corvettes a new name? Okay) and it didn't turn out to be the Tantive IV getting called in to run the blockade with the data. That said, I was thoroughly entertained by using it as a tugboat on the disabled ISD, so whatever. But having Leia's ship present and actively participating would have made more sense than having it docked in a hangar bay, and would have presented it as Leia left on the mission for Bail and then got recalled by the all-hands call that went out.


So I watched the movie again, yesterday, and here is my take on it.

After Bail's talk with Mon Mothma (about recruiting his "Jedi Friend"), he says to someone off-screen, "Captain Antilles, I have a mission for you." (Remember, 3P0's line from ANH "Our last master was Captain Antilles.") I assume, this job is to go pick up Leia, and bring her to Yavin 4. Because, when the call came through that Scarif was under attack, and the rebel fleet started scrambling fighters, C-3P0 and R2-D2 were still in the hangar there. The timeline is still a little fuzzy, tho. Not sure how the Tantive IV got docked with Admiral Raddus' capital ship, considering he had already left Yavin 4 and was presumably heading to Scarif.

I'll be picking up the novel this week, so hopefully those details will get cleared up in that.

Also, I'm pretty sure Tarkin & Leia were both CGI. They both had credited actors standing in (Guy Henry & Ingvild Deila), but the "actors" in the final shots were CGI. But they were both so well done, that neither my wife, nor my kids noticed that they were CGI. That says a lot.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Ah, that interpretation does make a little more sense, Caleria. I hadn't considered that Leia might not already be with Captain Antilles and the Tantive IV, and was being picked up in the intervening time.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:49 pm 
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An image cap from Rogue One

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And, the original.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:56 pm 
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And, for reference, Ingvild Deila, the mo-cap (yes, The Independent and Movie Pilot are both reporting that Leia was CGI, as well, Taly) actress that played Leia. Apparently, Carrie Fisher was deemed unsuited to mo-cap her younger self because there are significant enough changes to body language and expressions as one ages to make her less compatible than casting somebody else -- weirdly interesting. Also of interest, to me, was that apparently they digitally port the mo-cap actor's eyes into the CGI rendering pretty much intact, rather than try to render them from scratch. I suppose that's one way to avoid the most challenging ford of the uncanny valley, but it doesn't help games out much.

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