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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:02 pm 
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Lisa Vaas at Sophos wrote:
Germany threatens Facebook with €500,000 fine per fake news post

Germany’s had it up to here with Facebook being left to work out the fake news problem on its own.

The time for talking is over, Thomas Oppermann told Der Spiegel last week. Oppermann, the Social Democratic Party (SPD) parliamentary chairman said it is time to move on to new laws and fat fines when social media platforms don’t remove offending messages after 24 hours:

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Facebook did not avail itself of the opportunity to regulate the issue of complaint management itself. Now market dominating platforms like Facebook will be legally required to build a legal protection office in Germany that is available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.


According to the German news site Deutsche Welle, lawmakers in Berlin are mulling a policy that would enable victims of fake news and hate messages to contact the German headquarters of Facebook or of other social media platforms – don’t have one? Time to get one! – to prove that they’d been targeted and to ask for action, he said.

Otherwise, social media platforms could be looking at stiff penalties, Oppermann said:

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If, after appropriate examination, Facebook does not delete the offending message within 24 hours, it should expect individual fines of up to €500,000 [$521,675].


The plan is to fast-track the new rules: DW reports that the ruling coalition wants to get a law in place before next year’s elections, and there are plans to start debate immediately after the Christmas break.

However, Germany’s federal association of newspaper publishers, the BDZV, does not love the country’s media being lumped in with social networks. It’s come out against expanding press laws to include social media sites, saying that they’re not media. Rather, they’re more along the lines of telecoms, a BDZV spokeswoman told DW, echoing Facebook’s own rationalization that it’s simply a neutral platform to present news to users, not an actual cog in the news-making machinery itself:

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They should be viewed and regulated like telecom companies which are not responsible for what people are saying into the handset.


Germany’s tough talk came just one day after Facebook announced new tools to fight hoaxes and fake news. The new tools include easier reporting and the ability to flag stories as “disputed”.

It’s pulling Poynter into the mix: Facebook says it’s started to work with third-party fact-checking organizations that have signed on to a code of principles developed by the International Fact-Checking Network (IFCN), an alliance of fact-checkers hosted by Poynter.

Unsurprisingly in these polemic days, criticism of Poynter immediately sprouted after Facebook named it as a player in its new fake-news move.

Time to speed up development of a “more formal vetting mechanism”, said Alexios Mantzarlis, director of the IFCN, following Facebook’s announcement:

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Given the heightened importance of the code – I do not take lightly the additional filtering role it will now play – existing plans to establish a more formal vetting mechanism behind the code of principles will be accelerated.
There are currently 43 signatories. Poynter’s asked them all to come up with a full report of their vetting process within the next few weeks.


If the fact-checkers identify a story as fake, Facebook will flag it as disputed and will link to an article explaining the rationale. Disputed stories may also appear lower in News Feed.

Meanwhile, Facebook’s careers page now has a new listing: it’s looking for somebody to be its head of news.

Who in their right mind would want that job, given all the stakeholders they’d have to answer to at Facebook?

Dan Gillmor, Professor of Practice at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University, said that this is probably “the most important journalism job in the world” and that it’s bound to attract “a lot of excellent people”.

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I’d guess, even though it would be a difficult, often thankless, and possibly futile job for the reasons you suggest, that you’ll see someone of great talent and credibility in the position.


No doubt. Here’s to wishing the eventual hire all the luck in the world as Facebook grapples with post-election trauma in the US.

Luck, and hopefully a decent grasp of German.


Between this kind of punitive censorship and fining, the whole right to be forgotten thing, and so on, I'm amazed global internet firms bother to even operate in the EU anymore. We should just create a few firewall rules to prevent their citizens from having access to our non-compliant shithole of a global, free network, and let them go dark for a few months. Maybe then they'll realize that they kind of need these companies they keep shitting on and extorting for money and influence.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Personally, I'd love to see fake news banned and fined heavily.

Free press comes with responsibilities. Trash like The National Enquirer, Breitbart, InfoWars, NaturalNews... are not responsible with their freedoms. That goes even further with "satire" sites.

Social media has only proven to me that there are very few critical thinkers out there. They were always there, but the internet has given their idiocy a voice.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:02 pm 
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'Victims of fake news'?!?

Is Facebook considered a news outlet? Who is going there to keep up with world events?

I get that they (FB) would maybe rather not have people posting fake stuff, but it seems like it would be almost impossible to effectively police, and really not their problem that Chuck Chucklehead posts some garbage, probably as a joke.

It's a good thing that I don't run Facebook, because I'd probably just show Germany the finger and say "bye".


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:14 pm 
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everything on the internet is true

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Ulfynn wrote:
Is Facebook considered a news outlet? Who is going there to keep up with world events?

Pew Research Center:
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A majority of U.S. adults – 62% – get news on social media, and 18% do so often, according to a new survey by Pew Research Center

Pew: How Americans Get Their News

And 88% of Americans say that fake news has cause either a great amount (64%) or some degree of (24%) confusion about basic facts.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:35 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
And 88% of Americans say that fake news has cause either a great amount (64%) or some degree of (24%) confusion about basic facts.


Because people lack critical thinking skills... or, indeed ANY thinking skills, and just believe everything put in front of them. And, when challenged with actual truths... deny them outright because of said lack of skills.

See: Vaccines, GMOs, Trump... etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Wow, interesting article. The numbers blew me away. Still, I doubt FB thinks of themselves as a news outlet, at least not intentionally. Though, if it turns into a large enough profit center...? Imagine the next cable entity: Facebook News Network.

Nevermind; let's not imagine that.

Anyway, fake news is problematic, but I still don't think FB (in its current form) should be expected to comply with a 500k fine every time they can't root out every bit of fake news interspersed within the stupid amount of user content that's generated every day.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:36 pm 
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The Germans are just mad because they're not being given due credit for having invented fake news.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:54 am 
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Müs wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see fake news banned and fined heavily.

Free press comes with responsibilities. Trash like The National Enquirer, Breitbart, InfoWars, NaturalNews... are not responsible with their freedoms. That goes even further with "satire" sites.

Social media has only proven to me that there are very few critical thinkers out there. They were always there, but the internet has given their idiocy a voice.


Indeed, we should limit the right to publish to Pravda and Isvestia responsible mainstream news organizations, who are definitely trustworthy and never engage in blatant manipulation of the facts.

It's cute how all of a sudden people all you folks are worried about the average doofus consuming "fake news" that you're not affected by or not having "Critical thinking skills" you think you have.

I think you forgot to put a "Comrade" at the end of the paragraph, by the way.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:46 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see fake news banned and fined heavily.

Free press comes with responsibilities. Trash like The National Enquirer, Breitbart, InfoWars, NaturalNews... are not responsible with their freedoms. That goes even further with "satire" sites.

Social media has only proven to me that there are very few critical thinkers out there. They were always there, but the internet has given their idiocy a voice.


Indeed, we should limit the right to publish to Pravda and Isvestia responsible mainstream news organizations, who are definitely trustworthy and never engage in blatant manipulation of the facts.


Nah, I wouldn't go that far. Nor do I know how this can be fixed. "Manipulation of the facts" is a different beast than "Making bullshit up out of whole cloth". I'd just like to see some integrity/responsibility of the "press". On all sides.

The main problem is when confronted with proof that X is bullshit, the common response is to say "Well, that's not what site Y says. And your information is clearly biased. You should read Site Y and Wake Up."

Sure. Believe the bullshit conspiracy theories and not the actual, factual evidence.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:06 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Nah, I wouldn't go that far. Nor do I know how this can be fixed. "Manipulation of the facts" is a different beast than "Making bullshit up out of whole cloth". I'd just like to see some integrity/responsibility of the "press". On all sides.

The main problem is when confronted with proof that X is bullshit, the common response is to say "Well, that's not what site Y says. And your information is clearly biased. You should read Site Y and Wake Up."

Sure. Believe the bullshit conspiracy theories and not the actual, factual evidence.


Who's deciding what's a "bullshit conspiracy theory" and what's "actual factual evidence"? It's really easy to wave InfoWars around and pretend it's really all about that, while in reality the intent is (once again) for the Left to be able to set the terms of what it's opponents are and are not allowed to bring into public debate. Pro forma declarations that it's for "all sides" aren't enough; as college campuses around the country demonstrate that simply doesn't end up being the case.

Furthermore, the "proof" (hint - it's almost never actually "proof"; it's evidence of varying strength while dismissing the other side as a "bullshit conspiracy" regardless of the actual strength of their evidence.)

And on top of that you want to see it "banned and fined heavily". Yeah. The government should definitely be policing what constitutes "responsible" use of "freedom of the press".

Sorry, but no - part of the price of a free society is that you don't get to declare "bullshit" off-limits to your fellow citizens.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
Nah, I wouldn't go that far. Nor do I know how this can be fixed. "Manipulation of the facts" is a different beast than "Making bullshit up out of whole cloth". I'd just like to see some integrity/responsibility of the "press". On all sides.

The main problem is when confronted with proof that X is bullshit, the common response is to say "Well, that's not what site Y says. And your information is clearly biased. You should read Site Y and Wake Up."

Sure. Believe the bullshit conspiracy theories and not the actual, factual evidence.


Who's deciding what's a "bullshit conspiracy theory" and what's "actual factual evidence"? It's really easy to wave InfoWars around and pretend it's really all about that, while in reality the intent is (once again) for the Left to be able to set the terms of what it's opponents are and are not allowed to bring into public debate. Pro forma declarations that it's for "all sides" aren't enough; as college campuses around the country demonstrate that simply doesn't end up being the case.

Furthermore, the "proof" (hint - it's almost never actually "proof"; it's evidence of varying strength while dismissing the other side as a "bullshit conspiracy" regardless of the actual strength of their evidence.)

And on top of that you want to see it "banned and fined heavily". Yeah. The government should definitely be policing what constitutes "responsible" use of "freedom of the press".

Sorry, but no - part of the price of a free society is that you don't get to declare "bullshit" off-limits to your fellow citizens.


Bullshit Conspiracy Theories: Flat Earth. Moon Landing Hoaxes. Vaccine Caused Autism. GMOs are dangerous. 9/11 was an inside job. Sandy Hook was a "False Flag Operation". Global Warming is a Chinese Hoax. Global Warming isn't real. The Government is behind Chemtrails. Evolution is only a "theory". Homosexuality is "Only behavior and not genetic predisposition". Hillary Clinton is running a Sex Slave Operation out of a Pizza Restaurant.

Y'know. ACTUAL bullshit conspiracy theories with ACTUAL invalidating proof. Believing any of these should be grounds for voter disqualification.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Bullshit Conspiracy Theories: Flat Earth. Moon Landing Hoaxes. Vaccine Caused Autism. GMOs are dangerous. 9/11 was an inside job. Sandy Hook was a "False Flag Operation". Global Warming is a Chinese Hoax. Global Warming isn't real. The Government is behind Chemtrails. Evolution is only a "theory". Homosexuality is "Only behavior and not genetic predisposition". Hillary Clinton is running a Sex Slave Operation out of a Pizza Restaurant.

Y'know. ACTUAL bullshit conspiracy theories with ACTUAL invalidating proof. Believing any of these should be grounds for voter disqualification.



No, sorry. That inevitably leads to people coming up with reasons why Positions I Don't Like are Really Just Like Those. "Global Warming" is a perfect example; it isn't just "it's a Chinese Hoax" that gets lumped in there, it's "there's an awful lot of variables here, and you people seem to be doing a lot of picking and choosing, and are generally behaving like people with something to hide, so I'm not convinced" and all of a sudden you're right in there with "China made the whole thing up." Sorry, you don't get to pick out which of your favorite objectionable hogwash theories get banned and censored. We keep people like you angry and on the internet rather than in seats of power for a reason.

We shouldn't be disqualifying voters for believing those any more than for failing a "literacy test".

It's amusing seeing the blatant authoritarian hypocrisy appear though. We can't possibly **** on the Left hard enough at this point, and this sort of refusal to admit we live in a Republic is a perfect reason why.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:23 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
Bullshit Conspiracy Theories: Flat Earth. Moon Landing Hoaxes. Vaccine Caused Autism. GMOs are dangerous. 9/11 was an inside job. Sandy Hook was a "False Flag Operation". Global Warming is a Chinese Hoax. Global Warming isn't real. The Government is behind Chemtrails. Evolution is only a "theory". Homosexuality is "Only behavior and not genetic predisposition". Hillary Clinton is running a Sex Slave Operation out of a Pizza Restaurant.

Y'know. ACTUAL bullshit conspiracy theories with ACTUAL invalidating proof. Believing any of these should be grounds for voter disqualification.



No, sorry. That inevitably leads to people coming up with reasons why Positions I Don't Like are Really Just Like Those. "Global Warming" is a perfect example; it isn't just "it's a Chinese Hoax" that gets lumped in there, it's "there's an awful lot of variables here, and you people seem to be doing a lot of picking and choosing, and are generally behaving like people with something to hide, so I'm not convinced" and all of a sudden you're right in there with "China made the whole thing up." Sorry, you don't get to pick out which of your favorite objectionable hogwash theories get banned and censored. We keep people like you angry and on the internet rather than in seats of power for a reason.

We shouldn't be disqualifying voters for believing those any more than for failing a "literacy test".

It's amusing seeing the blatant authoritarian hypocrisy appear though. We can't possibly **** on the Left hard enough at this point, and this sort of refusal to admit we live in a Republic is a perfect reason why.


This isn't new. I've always believed that morons shouldn't be allowed to vote.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:59 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Y'know. ACTUAL bullshit conspiracy theories with ACTUAL invalidating proof. Believing any of these should be grounds for voter disqualification.

This sentence is part of the problem. Rather than attempt to engage with people, it's much easier to call them names, belittle them, attempt to make them feel stupid, and write them off as beyond help. Maybe if folks actually attempted to moderate their tone and stop trying to convince somebody through verbal brute force, it would have a better effect. They don't care if you have a magic hyperlink that proves them wrong. Your inability to elevate your attitude to the heights of your supposed knowledge makes you, and therefore what you support, the embodiment of something ugly and unpalatable. And then Trump gets elected because of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:32 pm 
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The real problem that the left has with Trump is not that anything he said was untrue, or that he has ushered in a "post truth society." We've been living in a post truth society for decades. The two major political parties have been distorting the same facts to deceive the public and push their agenda for as long as I can remember, and probably longer. The facts do not matter, and have never mattered for as long as I've been able to vote.

Then along comes Donald Trump. The right encountered him first, and lost. The left is the most vocally upset because they sincerely believed that the right would never win another national election again. The millennials belonged to them just like gen x, and they would be able to implement all of their left-wing conservative policies unopposed. Donald Trump did not play the game. He did not pretend to care about the game. The way the game was supposed to be played was you would deceive the public as much as possible without saying too many things that were easily verified as false. You were supposed to craft the illusion of truth. Donald Trump did not do that.

Donald Trump got up and said some old bullshit. Then, when he was called on it, he said some other bullshit. The longer this went on, the more people started to focus on the fact that all the "respectable and qualified" politicians had been doing the same thing for decades. Now, as strange as it may sound, the onus was not on Donald Trump to tell the truth. Donald Trump was the populist backlash to lying politicians. The burden was on Ben Carson, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and finally Hillary Clinton to convince us that they were telling the truth. Donald Trump had been lying to the American people for fifteen months. These asshats had been lying to the American people for decades. I mean, did anyone else see the irony of Hillary Clinton and her supporters pointing fingers and accusing Donald Trump of lying?

In the end, we had a giant game of chicken, with the American people saying, "*****, if you don't start telling the truth right **** now, we will elect Donald Trump," and Hillary Clinton saying, "You won't do it. You wouldn't dare do it. You don't have the nerve to do it. I am the Light itself!" So the American people said, "**** you, **** your couch, **** your email server, **** your husband, **** your daughter, **** your maid, **** your hopes and dreams of being the first female president, you will go down in history as the woman who single-handedly set women's liberation back fifty years by losing to Donald Trump."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:41 pm 
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I do not think that Generation X belonged to the Democrats, so much as Generation X belonged to Bill Clinton. There is probably a case to be made that Generation X still belongs to Bill Clinton. Hillary, though, is just his girlfriend that he wants to let sing in the band.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:49 pm 
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Also, I'm not sure that 50 years is all that meaningful. That puts us at 1966, which is the year NOW was founded. They were probably more effective then than they are, well, now.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:01 pm 
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Müs wrote:
This isn't new. I've always believed that morons shouldn't be allowed to vote.


Morons are not allowed to vote by reason of mental incompetence. The people you're defining as "morons" simply hold different absurd views than you.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:03 pm 
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That could explain Donald Trump's success. When he said, "Grab 'em by the pussy," all of gen x saw him as the Second Coming of Bill Clinton.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:11 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
**** your daughter


would

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:39 pm 
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While I think there's a real problem with Google essentially making it so you can become unemployable for life for one dumb thing you did as a teenager, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that get all their news from their Facebook echo chambers and then complain that they were lied to.


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Corolinth wrote:
That could explain Donald Trump's success. When he said, "Grab 'em by the pussy," all of gen x saw him as the Second Coming of Bill Clinton.

Trump actually has a lot in common with Bill Clinton.

Bush and Obama both ran on morality platforms. While obviously aimed at different audiences, their messages were the same: You should vote for me because my policies are the right thing to do, or at least they're more moral than the other guy's. Hillary lost because she made the mistake of trying to emulate them and running on morality, something she is obviously spectacularly unqualified to do.

Trump did not run on a morality platform. Like Bill Clinton, Trump ran as an amoral pragmatist. He's far more ruthless about it than Clinton was, but just like Clinton he does not bother to even try and maintain the pretense of morality. Remember, Clinton supported many morally offensive laws (DOMA, Don't ask don't tell) out of sheer pragmatsm.

Trump's foreign policy so far can be summed up as might makes right, which means Russia gets treated with respect and everyone else gets to lube up and start paying tribute. "Grab em' by the pussy" is another perfect example of hiw Trump is going to approach leadership. The US is the rich big shot so it gets to do whatever the **** it wants and everyone else gets to like it. Torture the terrorists? That **** is for pussies, just slaughter their entire families.

He approaches domestic issues the same way. "I like people that weren't captured." In other words, all he cares about are results, if you fail you're beneath his notice and he doesnt care about any other pesky details.Trump's "racism" is more of the same, whites are the majority and more importantly, white males have all the money and power, so they're the ones he's actually going to care about. His health care plan is basically opening up the market to reduce artificial costs and then writing off the people that don't earn enough money to justify their own existences.


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I think it's great that a thread that started about the krauts engaging in Cnut-level futility has become another thread about Trump.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:01 am 
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Trump is actually Krampus.

America has been naughty.

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