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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:03 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Trump's foreign policy so far can be summed up as might makes right, which means Russia gets treated with respect and everyone else gets to lube up and start paying tribute. "Grab em' by the pussy" is another perfect example of hiw Trump is going to approach leadership. The US is the rich big shot so it gets to do whatever the **** it wants and everyone else gets to like it. Torture the terrorists? That **** is for pussies, just slaughter their entire families.


As opposed to the European foreign policy of "we intend to re-invent colonialism by creating international bodies we control to tell everyone else what to do, expect the US to foot the bill for the military power to enforce it, then ***** whenever the US does anything without getting our approval first".

Might does, in fact, make right in foreign policy. Nations are not created equal. If you expect a larger, more powerful nation to be your ally and protect you, you become a client of that nation. They don't become your client because you've invented a bunch of "international norms" so you can have it both ways. If you expect a large, powerful, and belligerent nation to leave you alone, don't piss that nation off - or else understand that the first large powerful ally you expect to protect you is even more in the driver's seat than they already were.

Either that, or create your own collection of smaller nations and try to come up with your own **** defense plan, but then your politicians won't be able to buy votes any more pretending that free healthcare is a right but free speech is only a right as long as its used "responsibly." Her's a clue - free speech is free in terms of money, too. Healthcare isn't.

As for the torture thing, it's telling that you're still harping on that months after Trump backed off it. It took General Mattis all of 2 minutes to explain to him that it wasn't a good idea, but we're still pretending to be outraged over a completely literal meaning of what he said, while ignoring the fact that his campaign strategy was to appeal to frustrated people who privately think torturing terrorists is actually a pretty good idea because they really have no knowledge or responsibility for any of it.

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He approaches domestic issues the same way. "I like people that weren't captured." In other words, all he cares about are results, if you fail you're beneath his notice and he doesnt care about any other pesky details. Trump's "racism" is more of the same, whites are the majority and more importantly, white males have all the money and power, so they're the ones he's actually going to care about. His health care plan is basically opening up the market to reduce artificial costs and then writing off the people that don't earn enough money to justify their own existences.


White males do not come even close to having "all the money and power". In fact, the parade of rich minority celebrities lecturing poor white people on behalf of Hillary Clinton probably alienated at least a few additional votes away from her, primarily because rich, powerful minorities telling poor, or even middle-class people how privileged they are and therefore racist if they don't vote the way said rich minorities want is possibly the most absurd excuse for a persuasive technique ever.

As for John McCain, that wasn't about anyone being a "loser" it was about "hey, not everything John McCain says on national security is gospel just because he was captured." Which is true. It was utterly tasteless and tactless, but the approach of "take Trump as hyperliterally as possible" pretty much utterly failed the media in their attempts to drag the Braying She-Ass across the finish line, so I don't know why you're still at it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:07 am 
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Talya wrote:
Trump is actually Krampus.

America has been naughty.


I sense something kinky here.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:15 am 
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The Trumpening is our punishment for decades of insanity.

You have to hurt before you can realize you have a problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:07 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The Trumpening is our punishment for decades of insanity.

You have to hurt before you can realize you have a problem.


Don't kinkshame.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:28 am 
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Screeling wrote:
This sentence is part of the problem. Rather than attempt to engage with people, it's much easier to call them names, belittle them, attempt to make them feel stupid, and write them off as beyond help. Maybe if folks actually attempted to moderate their tone and stop trying to convince somebody through verbal brute force, it would have a better effect. They don't care if you have a magic hyperlink that proves them wrong. Your inability to elevate your attitude to the heights of your supposed knowledge makes you, and therefore what you support, the embodiment of something ugly and unpalatable. And then Trump gets elected because of it.

I know this is fast becoming the common wisdom these days, but we've always identified extremist idiocy on both sides and shamed it to the fringes where it belongs. The Dems did it with the Communists in the 40s and 50s, the Republicans did it with the John Birchers in the 60s, both sides have done it with various conspiracy theory types over the years. The thing is, the shunning has to come from the elites of the same side, not from the elites on the other side. The problem, in my opinion, is that elites on the Right over the last 30 years figured there was more money and votes in pandering to the know-nothings on their side than in shunning them, so a whole industry of talk radio, Fox News, etc. has been feeding that beast for decades, and the elites who thought they were driving the bus suddenly discovered that they're being run over by it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:40 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Screeling wrote:
This sentence is part of the problem. Rather than attempt to engage with people, it's much easier to call them names, belittle them, attempt to make them feel stupid, and write them off as beyond help. Maybe if folks actually attempted to moderate their tone and stop trying to convince somebody through verbal brute force, it would have a better effect. They don't care if you have a magic hyperlink that proves them wrong. Your inability to elevate your attitude to the heights of your supposed knowledge makes you, and therefore what you support, the embodiment of something ugly and unpalatable. And then Trump gets elected because of it.

I know this is fast becoming the common wisdom these days, but we've always identified extremist idiocy on both sides and shamed it to the fringes where it belongs. The Dems did it with the Communists in the 40s and 50s, the Republicans did it with the John Birchers in the 60s, both sides have done it with various conspiracy theory types over the years. The thing is, the shunning has to come from the elites of the same side, not from the elites on the other side. The problem, in my opinion, is that elites on the Right over the last 30 years figured there was more money and votes in pandering to the know-nothings on their side than in shunning them, so a whole industry of talk radio, Fox News, etc. has been feeding that beast for decades, and the elites who thought they were driving the bus suddenly discovered that they're being run over by it.



And that happens on both sides, too. You're not wrong about the republicans. They've pandered to evangelical morons, pro-lifers, sexists, homophobes, and conspiracy nuts and birthers and all other manner of radical "know-nothings". However, the democrats equally pander to black lives matter (just as nutty as any of the above), the politically correct safe-space people and and their triggers, rape culture idiocy, and extremist religious philosophies (that ironically, are doctrinally evangelical morons, pro-lifers, sexists, and homophobes), etc.

You are absolutely right that a spade needs to be called a spade, by the people on the more sensible part of the same political spectrum as the extremists, but neither side is doing it. You have identified a major deficiency in modern political discourse.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:35 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
I know this is fast becoming the common wisdom these days, but we've always identified extremist idiocy on both sides and shamed it to the fringes where it belongs. The Dems did it with the Communists in the 40s and 50s, the Republicans did it with the John Birchers in the 60s, both sides have done it with various conspiracy theory types over the years. The thing is, the shunning has to come from the elites of the same side, not from the elites on the other side. The problem, in my opinion, is that elites on the Right over the last 30 years figured there was more money and votes in pandering to the know-nothings on their side than in shunning them, so a whole industry of talk radio, Fox News, etc. has been feeding that beast for decades, and the elites who thought they were driving the bus suddenly discovered that they're being run over by it.


The fact that you're putting FOX News in the same category as John Birch shows the inherent problem with what you're saying about "pandering." You're confusing the large base of the Right with its extremist elements, and as for talk radio it's far from "all created equal". The elites aren't being run over by any "know-nothing base"; they're being reminded that there IS a base, and it's not found in the DC suburbs. FOX only appears out of the ordinary because their bias is different than the other networks, and if you want to talk about their commentary.. yes, it's mostly pretty bad, but what passes for commentary on other networks is hardly better.

This is the fundamental problem with the left - you want to stare askance at a wildly outsized portion of the Right as if it were nuts because it won't accept the the left's sacred cows - the same ones that have been deployed on college campuses and in the media to control what's acceptable to say in the first place. This is something you, and much of the rest of the left has to get used to - your ideas about what is and is not in the mainstream are not authoritative. You have to accept compromise with the large bulk of the Right on that, and that means that a great deal of where you think the norms are - because the media has pushed that idea relentlessly - are simply not accurate.

Your complaint amounts to a complaint that the politicians on the Right appealed to their base with ideas the Left doesn't like - and in the same paragraph where you acknowledge that can't work. Well, duh.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:54 pm 
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Yes, "both sides do it" is superficially true, but they don't do it equally at every point in history. At the moment, the Right/Republicans are the side that's skewing more towards its extreme elements, as evidenced by the fact that Hillary Clinton (who, for all her "vote for me 'cuz I'm a woman" nonsense is a policy centrist) won the Democratic nomination and Donald **** Trump won the Republican nomination. Or, if you prefer to think about it from a historical perspective, Ronald Reagan would be considered far too liberal and establishmentarian to get nominated to the Republican ticket today.

*ETA: One important caveat to the foregoing, however, is that I'm talking purely about the political / governmental world here. From a cultural perspective, the Left is definitely where the extremists dominate the discussion.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:17 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Yes, "both sides do it" is superficially true, but they don't do it equally at every point in history. At the moment, the Right/Republicans are the side that's skewing more towards its extreme elements, as evidenced by the fact that Hillary Clinton (who, for all her "vote for me 'cuz I'm a woman" nonsense is a policy centrist) won the Democratic nomination and Donald **** Trump won the Republican nomination. Or, if you prefer to think about it from a historical perspective, Ronald Reagan would be considered far too liberal and establishmentarian to get nominated to the Republican ticket today.

Is it really the take-away that the left is politically more centrist than the right with this election? Hillary's a known centrist, but isn't the whole reason she lost because nobody showed up to vote for the centrist that the party apparatchiks nominated with their super-delegates? Bernie had a way more energized voting bloc during the primaries than Hillary did.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:23 pm 
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I see the Republicans and Democrats as two sides of the same coin. "Right" and "left" don't begin to describe them. They really aren't that different from each other. Both are a bunch of tax-and-spend, big-government authoritarians who do not value individual liberty near enough, instead preferring to push whichever morality they follow (it doesn't matter which one it is) on everyone else. Both are utterly beholden and controlled by lobby groups. They use the same tactics politically, and provide the same lack of honest discourse to their supporters. And yet, these two equally bad options are considered your only two valid choices, anything else is a "wasted vote."

How about an actual economically conservative option, where balancing the budget is a priority, and curtailing government power and excess is a real goal? How about a party that wants to get out of legislating morality of any kind? What about a party that gives preference to no "group," instead elevating the individual to the highest level?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:26 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Is it really the take-away that the left is politically more centrist than the right with this election? Hillary's a known centrist, but isn't the whole reason she lost because nobody showed up to vote for the centrist that the party apparatchiks nominated with their super-delegates? Bernie had a way more energized voting bloc during the primaries than Hillary did.


For that matter, Trump is also frequently described as a "New York Democrat," policywise. He's no right-wing candidate. His nomination as a republican is utterly baffling.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:29 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Is it really the take-away that the left is politically more centrist than the right with this election? Hillary's a known centrist, but isn't the whole reason she lost because nobody showed up to vote for the centrist that the party apparatchiks nominated with their super-delegates? Bernie had a way more energized voting bloc during the primaries than Hillary did.


Hillary's problems weren't with her policy positions themselves. Her problem was that she justified her candidacy with an "I'm the morally superior candidate" campaign despite the fact that this claim fails the laugh test. Even in DC, there's not a lot of people that are more immoral than Clinton. Then she went and made the exact same mistake Romney did with her "deplorables" comment which sealed her fate.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:27 am 
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Talya wrote:
For that matter, Trump is also frequently described as a "New York Democrat," policywise. He's no right-wing candidate. His nomination as a republican is utterly baffling.

It's because the Republican base is not fundamentally defined by the small government, conservative ideals that a shrinking elite espouse. It's defined by resentment of shifting cultural, economic, and demographic trends that have consistently gone against them for the last 30+ years. Trump gives unfiltered voice to that resentment, so he's really the perfect Republican candidate for today.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:32 pm 
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Something I don't have the skills to mock up. A poster based on the Hope poster of Obama by Shepard Fairey.

Only featuring Donald Trump and saying Hate.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:55 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Screeling wrote:
This sentence is part of the problem. Rather than attempt to engage with people, it's much easier to call them names, belittle them, attempt to make them feel stupid, and write them off as beyond help. Maybe if folks actually attempted to moderate their tone and stop trying to convince somebody through verbal brute force, it would have a better effect. They don't care if you have a magic hyperlink that proves them wrong. Your inability to elevate your attitude to the heights of your supposed knowledge makes you, and therefore what you support, the embodiment of something ugly and unpalatable. And then Trump gets elected because of it.

I know this is fast becoming the common wisdom these days, but we've always identified extremist idiocy on both sides and shamed it to the fringes where it belongs. The Dems did it with the Communists in the 40s and 50s, the Republicans did it with the John Birchers in the 60s, both sides have done it with various conspiracy theory types over the years. The thing is, the shunning has to come from the elites of the same side, not from the elites on the other side. The problem, in my opinion, is that elites on the Right over the last 30 years figured there was more money and votes in pandering to the know-nothings on their side than in shunning them, so a whole industry of talk radio, Fox News, etc. has been feeding that beast for decades, and the elites who thought they were driving the bus suddenly discovered that they're being run over by it.

You are not wrong. I actually do agree with the spirit of what you say (I'll leave out disagreement on some of the details in it) but that's just one side of it. If the "other side" makes themselves so appear unpalatable in how they engage with their opposition, the opposition will likely remain galvanized.

I mean, really, what's the goal? Is it just to shame people into shutting up? Or is there actually a cause (the metaphorical) you want to educate and convince others is righteous?

Trump is basically the embodiment of that scene from Good Will Hunting where he talks about choosing the pipe over the belt to get beaten with by his foster father. Because F you, that's why.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:20 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Something I don't have the skills to mock up. A poster based on the Hope poster of Obama by Shepard Fairey.

Only featuring Donald Trump and saying Hate.


Whatever makes you feel better.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:35 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Micheal wrote:
Something I don't have the skills to mock up. A poster based on the Hope poster of Obama by Shepard Fairey.

Only featuring Donald Trump and saying Hate.


Whatever makes you feel better.

I'd say he campaigned on a platform of fear, not hate. Although the two can get confused. Just ask Master Yoda. I would actually say Hillary came closer to "hate" with her deplorables comment, but that was probably more disgust than hate. (Which is not a lot better.)

It doesn't concern me that Trump campaigned on a platform of fear. (Which he did. There's no avoiding it.) Trump would have campaigned on a platform of toad licking if it would have worked. Populism was the whole point of the campaign.

What does concern me is how many people found a platform of fear actually compelling. (I'm not talking here about the people who just voted trump because they thought he was the lesser of two evils. I'm talking about the rabid animals at the Trump rallies.)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:30 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Micheal wrote:
Something I don't have the skills to mock up. A poster based on the Hope poster of Obama by Shepard Fairey.

Only featuring Donald Trump and saying Hate.


Whatever makes you feel better.

I'd say he campaigned on a platform of fear, not hate. Although the two can get confused. Just ask Master Yoda. I would actually say Hillary came closer to "hate" with her deplorables comment, but that was probably more disgust than hate. (Which is not a lot better.)

It doesn't concern me that Trump campaigned on a platform of fear. (Which he did. There's no avoiding it.) Trump would have campaigned on a platform of toad licking if it would have worked. Populism was the whole point of the campaign.

What does concern me is how many people found a platform of fear actually compelling. (I'm not talking here about the people who just voted trump because they thought he was the lesser of two evils. I'm talking about the rabid animals at the Trump rallies.)


How exactly do you know what Trump rallies were really like?

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Because it was on film.

Everybody knows what the Trump rallies were like. We got to see that **** nonstop, and it continues today. Intense 24/7 media coverage of Donald mother **** Trump is the price we all pay to keep Hillary Clinton out of the White House.

Look, I know left-wing media bias is a thing, but let's not make it out to be more than it is.

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Corolinth wrote:
Because it was on film.

Everybody knows what the Trump rallies were like. We got to see that **** nonstop, and it continues today. Intense 24/7 media coverage of Donald mother **** Trump is the price we all pay to keep Hillary Clinton out of the White House.

Look, I know left-wing media bias is a thing, but let's not make it out to be more than it is.


We're also going to get to suffer through a retread of all the neoconservative religious bullshit from the Bush era, just this time it's going to be sold based on Trump's brand of pragmatism rather than for religious reasons. You already see this from the alt-right. For example, gay marriage and abortions are still bad, but this time it's not because God says so, it's because we need to make sure the Muslims don't out breed us and thus as a society can't afford to sanction institutions that lower the birthrate.

Ted Cruz and his camp are already hard at work drawing up a bunch of theocratic garbage, hoping Trump's general apathy towards social issues will cause him to simply rubber stamp them.


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Or not? The nice thing about general apathy is that it's generally easier to just say no.

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Corolinth wrote:
Because it was on film.

Everybody knows what the Trump rallies were like. We got to see that **** nonstop, and it continues today. Intense 24/7 media coverage of Donald mother **** Trump is the price we all pay to keep Hillary Clinton out of the White House.

Look, I know left-wing media bias is a thing, but let's not make it out to be more than it is.


You got to see about 30 seconds out of any given rally repeated over and over for days; not what an entire rally was actually like and that 30 seconds was picked by the media to send the message about the rallies they want to send. Unless you went on YouTube and sat there watching hours of video, or actually physically went to a rally yourself, no, everyone doesn't know what Trump rallies were like. I sure as **** didn't bother to do either, and I'm pretty sure that Taly and you didn't either.

It isn't media bias we're even talking about here; it's dumbass comments like "rabid animals at Trump rallies". Trump voters aren't any different than anyone else. These comments aren't about Trump voters; its about people that don't get that this is a Republic (whether or not they even live here) and don't seem to get that yes, people you don't like win elections, and no, it is not the end of the **** world every time you lose, and no it isn't not because these people are uniquely stupid or evil - certainly not any more so than anyone here. Yes, a lot of you people got good grades, or have relatively high IQs. That does not mean the difference in intelligence between you and everyone else is anywhere near as astronomical as you believe. Most of the discussion since the election amounts to tantrums and bed-wetting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:52 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
We're also going to get to suffer through a retread of all the neoconservative religious bullshit from the Bush era, just this time it's going to be sold based on Trump's brand of pragmatism rather than for religious reasons. You already see this from the alt-right. For example, gay marriage and abortions are still bad, but this time it's not because God says so, it's because we need to make sure the Muslims don't out breed us and thus as a society can't afford to sanction institutions that lower the birthrate.

Ted Cruz and his camp are already hard at work drawing up a bunch of theocratic garbage, hoping Trump's general apathy towards social issues will cause him to simply rubber stamp them.


You're going to piss and moan about imaginary "religious bullshit" regardless.

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Diamondeye wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
We're also going to get to suffer through a retread of all the neoconservative religious bullshit from the Bush era, just this time it's going to be sold based on Trump's brand of pragmatism rather than for religious reasons. You already see this from the alt-right. For example, gay marriage and abortions are still bad, but this time it's not because God says so, it's because we need to make sure the Muslims don't out breed us and thus as a society can't afford to sanction institutions that lower the birthrate.

Ted Cruz and his camp are already hard at work drawing up a bunch of theocratic garbage, hoping Trump's general apathy towards social issues will cause him to simply rubber stamp them.


You're going to piss and moan about imaginary "religious bullshit" regardless.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_Defense_Act

Quote:
The bill aims to prevent the federal government from taking action against a person "on the basis that such person believes or acts in accordance with a religious belief or moral conviction that: (1) marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman, or (2) sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage".


Two specific religious beliefs expressly referred to as religious beliefs in the bill will now receive special protection against discrimination that other religious beliefs will not receive.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:31 pm 
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This fake news thing is an obvious smoke screen for the approved fake news.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


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