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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:39 am 
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That didn't take long. Pat Robertson, icon of evangelical Christianity, blames the haitians for their disaster and poverty.

Pat Robertson wrote:
PAT ROBERTSON: And, you know, Kristi, something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, "We will serve you if you will get us free from the French." True story. And so, the devil said, "OK, it's a deal."

And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to God. And out of this tragedy, I'm optimistic something good may come. But right now, we're helping the suffering people, and the suffering is unimaginable.


Classy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:42 am 
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I generally think Pat Robertson is a total shitheel and all, but he didn't say anything remotely close to what your claiming.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:11 am 
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In other news, Monty conflates "Christianity" in the thread title with "evangelical Christianity", assumes that because Robertson is respected by some evangelicals that he's respected by all, implies that because Robertson made a certain comment that those who pay attention to him must agree with that comment, is untruthful about what that comment was, and of course implies that the comment about an unobservable supernatural causal connection must necessarily be inaccurate simply because it offends him.

This is just another "we don't ahve an active thread ripping on Christianity, let me start one" thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:28 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:29 am 
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No wait, this one is even better:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:38 am 
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That book is actually really awesome, Raf. I used to have it (dunno if it survived a couple moves). Marlette is pretty entertaining.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Khross wrote:
I generally think Pat Robertson is a total shitheel and all, but he didn't say anything remotely close to what your claiming.


Sure he did. Read it again, Khross. He is very much saying that (and you can tell he's saying this, because he implies that everyone is dancing around this, the big pink elephant in the room) this dissaster happened because the hatians (in his opinion) cut a deal with the devil. He has done this before. He did it in regards to Katrina and New Orleans. In fact, it seems that every time a group, nation, or state does something Pat Robertson thinks is immoral, he threatens that natural disaster is ominously possible. Or, if a place like New Orleans suffers a horrible random tragedy, he implies or explicitly says it's due to their tolerance of ungodly ways.

He's not alone in this. Many evangelical preachers do the same thing. Note, that when disaster strikes places like god-fearing rural Texas, they don't draw conclusions about that morality. But hey, who is looking for consistency?

Pat Robertson is a major evangelical leader. He may as well be the American version of a powerful Imam. His statements here are entirely inappropriate, and he should apologize profusely not only to the people of Haiti, but to his audience.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Khross wrote:
I generally think Pat Robertson is a total shitheel and all, but he didn't say anything remotely close to what your claiming.


Sure he did. Read it again, Khross. He is very much saying that (and you can tell he's saying this, because he implies that everyone is dancing around this, the big pink elephant in the room) this dissaster happened because the hatians (in his opinion) cut a deal with the devil. He has done this before. He did it in regards to Katrina and New Orleans. In fact, it seems that every time a group, nation, or state does something Pat Robertson thinks is immoral, he threatens that natural disaster is ominously possible. Or, if a place like New Orleans suffers a horrible random tragedy, he implies or explicitly says it's due to their tolerance of ungodly ways.

He's not alone in this. Many evangelical preachers do the same thing. Note, that when disaster strikes places like god-fearing rural Texas, they don't draw conclusions about that morality. But hey, who is looking for consistency.


A) Who cares?
B) How do you know he's wrong? I think he's wrong too, but I don't really know
C) Why should he apologize for stating his religious viewpoint? Just because you think it's inappropriate?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:17 pm 
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I know he's wrong because his god does not exist. Beyond that, it's irrelevant if he is correct or not - it's an ******* thing to do, and indicative of the kind of ministry he operates. Instead of wasting his breath chastising these suffering people for what he feels was an affront to his diety, he should be working to help them in actual, tangible ways.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I know he's wrong because his god does not exist.


Yea, yea, your faith is more right than his faith. We get it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I know he's wrong because his god does not exist. Beyond that, it's irrelevant if he is correct or not - it's an ******* thing to do, and indicative of the kind of ministry he operates. Instead of wasting his breath chastising these suffering people for what he feels was an affront to his diety, he should be working to help them in actual, tangible ways.


So in other words, the problem is that he's saying and doing things you don't like.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:20 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Monte wrote:
I know he's wrong because his god does not exist.


Yea, yea, your faith is more right than his faith. We get it.



So, in your opinion, it's a matter of faith to say that Santa Claus does not exist? That the Easter Bunny does not exist? That fire was not brought to early man by Prometheus, who stole it from the gods? How about the tooth fairy?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Monte wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Monte wrote:
I know he's wrong because his god does not exist.


Yea, yea, your faith is more right than his faith. We get it.



So, in your opinion, it's a matter of faith to say that Santa Claus does not exist? That the Easter Bunny does not exist? That fire was not brought to early man by Prometheus, who stole it from the gods? How about the tooth fairy?


All irrelevant. The existance or nonexistance of any given supernatural being or phenomenon does not bear on the existance of any other.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Monte wrote:
I know he's wrong because his god does not exist. Beyond that, it's irrelevant if he is correct or not - it's an ******* thing to do, and indicative of the kind of ministry he operates. Instead of wasting his breath chastising these suffering people for what he feels was an affront to his diety, he should be working to help them in actual, tangible ways.


So in other words, the problem is that he's saying and doing things you don't like.


No, but you like to use that little twist, don't you? That people only disagree with him because what he says is uncomfortable for them, perhaps because you assume we're afraid it might be true?

I don't like what he's saying, because what he's saying is insane, classless, and harmful to his listeners. He is making the argument that because these people began their revolution against the french who enslaved them with a vodoo ritual, they made a deal with the devil and thus brought this natural disaster on themselves.

If he was standing on a street corner saying this, people would rightfully think of him as a lunatic. Sadly, he has a huge ministry, and uses that platform to spread this lunacy to others. He is capitalizing on a horrifying human tragedy to try and make people fear his deity. I didn't think he'd ever top his Holy Muscle Building powder, but here is is, digging even lower.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:

All irrelevant. The existance or nonexistance of any given supernatural being or phenomenon does not bear on the existance of any other.


An irrelevant response. I was simply arguing that saying something does not exist is not an act of faith. It is not an act of faith to say that Zeus is a myth. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Santa Claus. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Tooth Fairy. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Easter Bunny. Likewise, it is not an act of faith to say there is no God.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:

All irrelevant. The existance or nonexistance of any given supernatural being or phenomenon does not bear on the existance of any other.


An irrelevant response. I was simply arguing that saying something does not exist is not an act of faith. It is not an act of faith to say that Zeus is a myth. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Santa Claus. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Tooth Fairy. It is not an act of faith to say there is no Easter Bunny. Likewise, it is not an act of faith to say there is no God.


Yes it is. You do not know for a fact that either Zeus or God does not exist. Your other examples are silly; Santa Claus did exist in the form of Saint Nicholas, and is an outgrowth of Christianity in its modern form. So is the Easter Bunny. The tooth fairy is a similar outgrowth, and all were created as explicitly fictional to entertain children in the first place; no one ever actually promoted them as real.

Like the Flying Spaghetti monster, the argument is "if fanciful ideas expressely created as fictional are fictionl, then any other idea I consider fictional must be the same." It's the same as if I were to write a book about a fictional submarine then claim that because that submarine is fictional that submarines must really not exist.

In any case none of this changes the fact that you just want a thread to vent your spleen at people who ahve the gall to think things you don't like.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Monte, don't keep this fire burning, man. It never goes anywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:38 pm 
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I am absolutely certain the Easter Bunny does not exist. I am absolutely certain that Santa Claus does not exist. It takes zero faith to make those statements. They are objectively true.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Monte wrote:
They are objectively true.


And you have demonstrated in the past a lack of understand of the phrase "objectively true," does that mean I get to discount everything you say?

Atheism is not a logical belief, it requires active faith.

Regardless, all this is tangential to the core point: your opinion is that the guy in the OP is wrong, so you want to **** on him and blocs of his religion as a whole. There are multiple logical fallacies entailed within that, indicating that the entire position you're taking is based solely on belief (due to no evidence), which is what both DE and I are saying.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I am absolutely certain the Easter Bunny does not exist. I am absolutely certain that Santa Claus does not exist. It takes zero faith to make those statements. They are objectively true.


Disregarding the endless discussion of what "objective" means, so what? No one is arguing the Easter Bunny is real.

You're just derailing (ironically your own topic) at this point. This is all just you railing at Pat Robertson for believing things you don't. Wh should anyone give a ****?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:18 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I am absolutely certain the Easter Bunny does not exist. I am absolutely certain that Santa Claus does not exist. It takes zero faith to make those statements. They are objectively true.


You are absolutely certain of something which you cannot provide facts to prove or even corroborate. That's called faith. There is nothing objectively true about it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Monte,

either stop turning every gorram thread where some whackjob christian says something stupid into an attack on Christianity or STFU.

I mean after all you are only a fencing instructor... so what makes your opinion any more valid than the Christian whackjob?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:50 pm 
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Everytime I read this forum I scan this title and think it says Christian Bale.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Supposedly his ministry has sent a few million's worth of aid to help out over there.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Supposedly his ministry has sent a few million's worth of aid to help out over there.


Yes. I doubt anyone here has even donated $5. Apologies if I'm wrong.

Quote:
VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., January 13, 2010 --On today’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about Haiti’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.

Chris Roslan
Spokesman for CBN


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