The Glade 4.0

Next up on the list of things that should be making us nervous about the religious takeover of our military - Jesus Scopes. That's right. Scopes for US rifles containing coded biblical messages. If you're not aware of the slow conversion of our military to a non-secular fundamentalist evangelical institution, you can read about it here.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

This guy is making my head hurt.

Trijicon is a private company, they can put whatever they want on their products. I like the idea of shooting people with "Jesus Rifles" though. It makes me lol.

This is verging on tinfoil hat territory.

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Holy shitsnacks!

*sigh* So now Scriptural references are taboo? What will you advocate next, that soldiers not be allowed to carry Bibles with them? Seriously, it's a reference, such as you can see most any Sunday while watching football. Soldiers are under no obligation to look in a Bible to see what the reference says.

Not even worth calling a tempest in a teapot. If you have no concerns greater than this, be thankful to God that you don't have a stroke from getting your blood pressure up so high over such trivialities.

Maybe we should shape hand grenades like pocket NTs, too.

And canteens that turn water into wine.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Hoorah.

So then obviously you'd be fine with having scopes that say "Praise Allah" on them as well?

In other news, the military fails to concern itself with inspecting equipment that works properly for trivial cosmetic issues. Morons claim this is a problem because the enemy might not like it.

As for this crap about chaplains and such, when evangelicals stop volunteering to serve in the military and specifically as chaplains in such large proportions, the military won't be so overrun with them. It's an all-volunteer military. Soldiers, regardless of rank, have a right to practice and state their religious views. It's already prohibited by regulation to use command or other authority to promote specific religious practices.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yet if the observations of that second article are true, those regulations are either ignored or ineffectual.

Nah. You can't order someone to love Jesus.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Do these scopes say "Praise Jesus" on them? Nope. They give a Bible verse reference. If someone supplied items to our military that had a reference to something in the Koran, so what? Soldiers can look up stuff in the Koran if they choose to, with or without equipment references. This is some kind of a big deal? Not from where I sit.

I don't have a problem with it. And I'm not a fan of religion in any event.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Some individuals do not comply with regulations sometimes. That does not establish that regulations are either ignored or ineffectual.

As for the specific allegations of the second article, the author rambles and appears to be trying to generalize from a few limited observations of the Air Force Academy to the military in general. He also does not seem to grasp that Generals have as much right as anyone else to state their religious views; the only prohibition is in using their authority to enforce them on others. All he's really establishing is that there are a lot of evangelicals in the military, and the chaplaincy and the prevailing religious atmosphere reflect this. Other than that, the article is just a lengthy rant.

I personally find this annoying at times myself, but the fact of the matter is that we have an all-volunteer military and even if we didn't, we'd still be drafting lots of evangelicals. Military personnel have no right whatsoever to protection from exposure to religious views they disagree with. If you can't stand being around evangelicals, don't volunteer. There's no right to be in the military in the first place.

Some people don't get that the fact that the military is not pushing "secular values" or limiting the religious influence of individual members does not in any way mean the military as a whole is being taken over by religion. Some of those people are officers. Selfishness is not limited to privates.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Trijicon optics are **** awesome. Should we exchange them for something inferior, or force secularism on a private entity? Those are the options.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Ideally, the govt would ask Trijicon to remove the references in the scopes provided to the military, and Trijicon would comply.

However, for the most part, I really don't care about them. Trijicon scopes are teh pwn.

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Holy shitsnacks!

It sounds to me like they put these passages on all their scopes. If so the questions become:

• Does a private company have the right to do this? I think it does with its money and it's first amendment rights. Many companies (and probably several that do business with the government) have bible verses as part of their creed, advertising or mission statement.
  
• Were these Scopes purchased based on their biblical writings? According to the article military reps say no; they weren't even aware they had them If we have any reason to doubt them may be a topic for debate, but at the moment in light of any other evidence we should take them at their word.
  
• Do the Scopes need to be returned? I would say no, but I'm not a constitutional lawyer. I don't see it as a direct violation of the first amendment (It does not establish a federal religion or prohibit the worship thereof) If there's just cause on a lesser statute or you disagree with my interpretation then perhaps an injunction should be pursued. Otherwise I think we should not try to interpret this event to be something it is not.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

The second article is from 2007. IIRC, from back then I read an article or two comparing the chaplain services of the US Navy and the US Air Force, with the Navy being far more tolerant of other religious views in the ranks. The Air Force, and especially the Air Force Academy, has changed some of those policies since then, as I recall a follow-up article mentioning.

As to the Bible references on the scopes: considering the fact that mere rumors of desecration of a Koran leads to whackjobs saying that it's another Western Crusade against Islam, it is a bit of a PR blunder to have Christian biblical references on military equipment. But I'll bet they inscribe this stuff on all their products. this can be rectified with one phone call from a military procurement officer saying: "uh, yeah, please don't include those inscriptions in any future product you make for us. Thanks!"

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Women are from Hoboken, men are from Trenton. ~ Jimmy Kimmel

You guys are obviously missing the most important part of religious propaganda these scopes have slipped past you!!! Do you know what you see when you look through one?! A CROSS!!!

Obviously that should be removed right now?! What right do they have to force people to see a link to Jesus every time they try to shoot something?

While you’re at it, remove cross’ from all scopes, they are obviously just trying to press these symbols onto us?! /runs away to get tin foiled hat

/thread

Lydiaa wins.

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Holy shitsnacks!

I think not. It appears to me (though I have not looked at the passages in fine detail) that Trijicon is, in effect, giving a blessing to these pieces of equipment. That they work properly and give light to the user. I see nothing wrong with that. If someone wants to argue for inferior sights in order to avoid such blessings by a private company, then go for it.

Gotta agree, though it pains me.

woot first thread win... /checks achievement list

Next up... catch up to Talya in post count... hmm.. I'm gonna need a lot more coffee...

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember something like that too. I don't think it was so much a matter of the Navy being "far more tolerant" though, simply having a greater variety of Chaplains. In any case, what goes on at the Air Force Academy isn't generalizable to the rest of the military or even the rest of the Air Force. Service academies are very much their own little world. In some cases, they even have specific exceptions in the regulations; for example weapons issued to cadets at West Point are not subject to the normal arms room procedures the rest of the Army is.



It is indeed a PR blunder.. but really, anyone who doesn't already think we're in a "crusade" against Islam isn't going to decide we are based on this. No matter what we do, this will be a "religious war" to our enemies simply because we're (mostly) not muslims. As PR blunders go it's pretty trivial; it mainly serves as fodder for people who think the military is being "taken over" by evangelicals. I'd prefer the company had not done this, but it's really almost more of a "for the lulz" thing than anything else.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

This thread is bullshit. Give me a break, everyone knows that Jesus no-scopes.