The Glade 4.0

Monte, Normally I consider my point irreparably broken when you respond after me. But here
I believe you are clear. I want "Satan Sights"

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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles Mackay

Heh, obviously you've never done any sort of contract work for the government, Bery. Its all in the spec...and there wasn't anything in the spec disallowing the Biblical inscriptions. But if they mod the spec (which does happen) to "no non-essential inscriptions of any sort", well, the company either complies or loses the contract, possibly with penalties.

It doesn't really bother me that the inscriptions are there--In-N-Out Burger and Chick-Fil-A both put Biblical references on their food packaging, but I still eat it because it tastes good and I don't have to read them if I don't want to. You don't see any problem with the inscriptions, but it does bother some people. And, like it or not, those people are gonna object to any sort of hint at government "sponsorship" of any religion whatsoever.

Yeah, its a tempest in a teapot, but in this case, Separation of Church and State, along with contract law, trumps Trijicon's First Amendment rights on those inscriptions--but only if they mod the spec. I'm betting the spec will be modded.

And I hear ya, DE. We're not making this a religious war, the extremists are...since that's one way they recruit.

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Women are from Hoboken, men are from Trenton. ~ Jimmy Kimmel

Most likely it will be. Legally speaking, there's no First Ammendment basis whatsoever for complaint. The government didn't ask for the inscriptions, and it has no legal obligation to object to them as long as the product works as specified in the contract. The First Ammendment, after all, doesn't specify separation of Church and State; that's a way of expressing the general intent behind the Establishment clause.

However from a PR standpoint, you're right. Lots of people object to this sort of thing because they feel it's a violation of that principle, and while that feeling is largely one of oversensitivity, there's also no reason for the government to antagonize them by allowing it to remain. From that standpoint the government can, should, and probably will, demand that the inscriptions be deleted in the future.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Or, the company could tell the gov't to take their PC-ness and buy their scopes elsewhere; it depends on how strongly they feel about the issue.

Or, the gov't could decide this is a tempest in a teapot at most and ignore it.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but this thread seems kind of, well, pointless.
For one, I don't see how a bible verse reference (that no one even noticed until now) on scopes is indicative of religious take-over of the military.
And two, who cares?? Post a reference to the Koran or the Torah on them, it doesn't matter. Its not like every soldier will automatically run out and find the religious text and convert because oh-em-gee it was on my scope!
Don't we have better things to talk about?

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Why exactly should the government decide its a tempest in a teapot and ignore it, when the company should tell the government to take their PC-ness elsewhere? It's hardly a teapot issue for the company; it's major income for them.

It costs the company noting whatsoever to not put the inscriptions on the scopes, and it saves the government a headache. There's no good reason for the company not to agree to stop doing this.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Well, maybe you saw a thread about Pat Robertson a few days ago. The entire point of that thread was to antagonize and attack Christians and Christianity because the poster doesn't like the fact that people believe things he doesn't.

Since that thread was a miserable failure, we now have this attempt. This one has the side benefit of taking potshots at the military. Of course, it's failing just as miserably.

I think the real intent may be to take the responses here to various liberal boards and say "See? The evil conservative-christian-military establishment just won't kowtow to us like they're supposed to! Be afraid; they're coming with crusading Air Force Cadets to make us all love Jesus! Of course, since hardly any of us know the first thing about military operations we couldn't defend ourselves even if this were actually true!"

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Or, in other words, it's a tin-foil hat theory that failed so miserably, the theorists actually used saran instead of Reynolds wrap.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Well, if the company feels strongly about their faith then Matthew 10:33 would be a really good reason for them to not agree to stop doing this.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Thank you. You have no idea how badly I needed that laugh!

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

If it's worth 660 million dollars to them to stop doing it, sure. The actual verses aren't even on the scopes; just the chapter and verse number reference. It's not like they're actually helping anyone learn about God or gain any spiritual comfort from this; the references are almost microscopic in the first place and of those who did see it 9 out of 10 probably thought it was just part of the serial number it was located next to. It's no wonder it took this long to notice.

It's not exactly a major loss of evangelical effort or "silencing your message for the concerns of the world" to stop putting bible references on a product that were nearly invisible in the first place.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

It depends on how strongly the company feels about the issue. It's just possible that the company feels they are blessed with success by God for what they do, and that capitulating to the whims of the world will remove that blessing; putting your faith in God to see to your economic success seems far better to me than looking for success from the world.

Not only that, it's sometimes better to suffer short-term economic loss while standing on principle than to take the short term gain and throwing away your future.

Apart from the delicious irony of a Christian wanting God's approval while they go out killing the neighbor they are to love as themselves, I don't see the issue here.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Its very easy, when you're in the majority, to be blind to the harm you do to the minority with what to you is 'no big deal'

The point is, someone is offended. I'm sure lots of people think racial epitaphs are no big deal, or anti-semetic jokes are no big deal. But Bery (and a number of others) get offended by anti-christian rhetoric and are quick to accuse others of 'stirring up trouble' --if you're willing to do so, you have to understand that those of us in a religious minority are equally offended by the things you think are 'no big deal'

True, but once it has been brought to light, then there is the possibility of that changing. Maybe no one read them on the product or noticed the reference there, but maybe it made an impact on someone/some people reading the article. Who knows?
From a logical standpoint it would make sense to just take it off and continue making money. From a Christian standpoint, if there is the possibility of saving even one soul, then wouldn't that justify the financial loss? After all, we are talking about eternity here... Of course, it would take a very unique individual to actually stand up for that. Money talks, and your logical explanation would sway most people I would think, especially the part about no one noticing it anyway.
Seems like one of those 'pick your battles' kind of situations.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

I would like to join the line of 'not christian, and failing to see how this is newsworthy'. P

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Fine. Then start your own company, create equipment the equal of what Trijicon makes, and put whatever message you wish on them. You have the freedom to do that, you know.

Except it's not "anti-Christian rhetoric". And the issue isn't that people are "offended" by it. Most oftentimes, it's a cheap and dishonest jab misrepresenting Christian behavior. Putting a verse number on a scope is not jab or misprepresentation of Atheism, Agnosticism, Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, Racism, Chauvinism, Feminism, Radicalism, Sexism, Organism or anything else.

One is an act of active dishonesty. One is not.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

I would however care if guns equipped with these scopes could cure cancer and leprosy, heal the infirm and ill, and I would have major problems if the guns with these scopes turned a loaf of bread and a fish into a feast for thousands

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I'm not really sure how sticking an obscure Bible reference (not even the actual Bible verse, but rather, just a coded reference to a verse and chapter) on a scope is evangelizing, and what is to be lost in the removal aside from the owner's personal desire to see coded references to a book and verse of the Bible on his products.

And does anyone here seriously believe that of all the options, Trijicon was chosen for the government contract because they had the brilliant idea of putting tiny, obscure Bible-referencing text on their products?

On the other side, if anyone with a gun is basing their religious convictions on what their rifle scopes told them to do, we're got a much more serious problem than the scopes themselves.

Taken alone, the scopes seem like no big thing. Taken in context with the recent history
of attempts to proselytize young minds, I see a valid concern.

In 1984 at Ft Leonardwood if you were a trainee you had the choice of going to Church on Sunday or be punished with extra duty during that time everyone else was at church.

You don't have to wear a tinfoil hat to be concerned about Separation of Church and State.

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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles Mackay

In theory, yes, the possibility of saving even one soul is worth 660 million dollars. However, if they lose the contract, the bible verses won't be seen by the people that would have had the scopes anyhow, and the company will be out a huge amount of money, possibly putting it out of buisness and preventing those scopes sold to the civilian market from being sold and thereby eliminating that miniscule possibility as well.

There's also the fact that some people may be repelled by this action and be less likely to believe in Christianity because of it.

It depends on how strongly the company feels about the issue. It's just possible that the company feels they are blessed with success by God for what they do, and that capitulating to the whims of the world will remove that blessing; putting your faith in God to see to your economic success seems far better to me than looking for success from the world.

Not only that, it's sometimes better to suffer short-term economic loss while standing on principle than to take the short term gain and throwing away your future.




The problem with that reasoning is that the government contract is a major part of any blessing they have received. It may also be that God does not want His word trivialized in this way; a fashion that opens it to ridicule and scorn, or that He does not want it placed on weapons.

Its very easy, when you're in the majority, to be blind to the harm you do to the minority with what to you is 'no big deal'

The point is, someone is offended. I'm sure lots of people think racial epitaphs are no big deal, or anti-semetic jokes are no big deal. But Bery (and a number of others) get offended by anti-christian rhetoric and are quick to accuse others of 'stirring up trouble' --if you're willing to do so, you have to understand that those of us in a religious minority are equally offended by the things you think are 'no big deal'



It's also very easy, especially as a minority, to classify anything you don't like as harmful when it... isn't.



If you're just as offended by a microscopic Bible references in the serial number of a scope as people are by racial epithets, then you've got a major problem. "Being offended" isn't a major problem in the first place, and just because you're equally offended by some minor matter like this as someone is by open slurs does not make it equally meritorious.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

There isn't any "recent history of attempting to prostelytize young minds." There's been some overreaching at the Air Force Academy, over 2 years ago.



That was 26 years ago, and in any case you weren't being punished. You were being kept occupied. Currently, soldiers who smoke get to take smoke breaks, while those who don't often don't during Command Maintenance. This is unfair, but it is not "punishment". I would imagine that even at that time this was not in accordance with regulations, and it certainly is not now.



You do in order to combine a few incidents at the Air Force Academy with the situation at For Leonard Wood in 1984 and Bible references on some scopes and create some concern out of it.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You seem to be confused. The issue isn't that Trijicon puts the messages on their scopes. They are a private company and can do what they want.

The issue is the military putting them on their firearms with the messages there. The military should either require them to be removed, or find another vendor.

As DE already pointed out, this is likely an oversight. It's been said, but performance specs are largely how vendors build and design products. Performance specs allow the purchaser to specify details where certain characteristics and envelopes of performance crucial to the function the design can be spelled out without tying to manufacturer's hands by micromanging them in an area where the purchaser is not an expert.

In other words, they'd have to explicitly spell out not to put such lettering within the scope's componentry.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones