The Glade 4.0

Scripture is filled with examples of people who took a stand even in the face of destruction. The three captive Jews who would not bow down to the golden image, even though they faced being thrown into a furnace. Daniel, who prayed even when facing being thrown into a lion's den for doing so. Joseph, who endured prison rather than have sex with a married woman. All did what they felt they had to do to honor God, and God did not fail them.

I commend Trijicon for doing what they feel is right and pray that they continue to do so. There is no economic reward in existance worth compromising your conscience before God. 660 million dollars is certainly not worth it. If God so wills it, 660 million dollars can disappear in a day. So can many other things.

Your contention is predicated on the idea that not placing the verse reference in the scopes is somehow "compromising your consience before God." I see no reason to believe the Scripture indicates this should be teh case.

For example, what if the spec had specifically called for "abscense of non-functional, non-obfuscating text" and Trijicon included it anyway. That would be tantamount to theft (of very lage scale), since they took a contract and payment for something they didn't deliver. Isn't that a sin?

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Or maybe they should re-think what they think is right. Just because some people in Scripture did what they thought was right and were rewarded does not in any way mean that this company is also doing what is right. Exposing God's Word to ridicule and trivialization is not something I would classify as "right".

You are correct that God can take away 660 million dollars in an instant. If the government is going to revise the contract to take it away if they do not stop, both they and you might be well advised not to assume that God cannot use the government as His instrunment.

Scripture also says "render unto Caesar that which is Casear's", and putting Scripture on things which you sell is not a matter of conscience before God. God does not require us to do any such thing. He does require us to avoid idolatry.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Again, it depends on how strongly Trijicon feels about the issue. I'm reasonably sure that if the specs denied the placing of such text, that Tirjicon had several options:

1) Don't bid on the contract.

2) Try to change the language of the spec.

3) Deliver the scopes according to spec.

Which brings lots of questions into play, such as: Is the military willing to equip their men with inferior sights over this issue? And such questions.

If Trijicon feels that adding the references is the equivalent of asking God to put a blessing on that equipment, would they be comfortable sending out equipment to our men in the armed services that does not have that blessing (in their view)?

Depends on how strongly they feel about the issue.

You're making an assumption that Trijicon is the only quality sight maker.

You also still seem to be confused. This really has nothing to do with Trijicon, it has to do with the Military and how they spec their equipment.

Hopefully the Military will clarify the spec, and then Trijicon will have a simple business decision to make.

D.E.

You make the coercion sound innocuous enough. That's not how it was though. The DI's
made it quite clear how it would be preferable to go to the chapel and "sit", and how unpleasant
the alternative would be. Can't tell you how unpleasant though, everybody went.

You and I have different views on what recent history includes. I guess if it's not on CNN
anymore it's old news.

There was another mandatory assembly I remember at my permanent duty station,
everyone had to go to the Theater and listen to an old Vietnam Vet, you may know of him,
had a white phosphorus grenade explode in his hand, rifle shot I believe. He gave us the no Atheists in foxholes speech. He was horribly disfigured.

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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles Mackay

I make no such assumption. It was not me who covered Trijicon scopes with praise for their quality. But it was apparently Trijicon that won the bid to supply the scopes, therefore the other bidders would seemingly have been deficient in some area, be it cost or timely supply of sufficient quantity or ruggedness or something.

If the military "clarifies" the spec and Trijicon tells them that the change is unacceptable, then it is the military that has to make a decision: Accept what Trijicon is willing to provide, or find another supplier. Which may be deficient in some way.

I doubt very much that the company has that concrete a view on the matter. In fact, the article indicates that they do it as a matter of respect to their late founder.

It is highly doubtful that the original specification forbade this, but the government has considerable authority to alter supply contracts. The entire area is fraught with pitfalls. As it happens, I took an online course on this in October, but I found it incredibly arcane.

In any case, it is not necessarily true that this company is the only source of quality sites. If it is the only source that can provide quality sites in sufficient quantity, then no, the military should not accept inferior gear if the company really insists it will not continue to contract without them.

That said, if the company really thinks that A) a "blessing" on equipment is somehow tied to a physical property of the equipment or B) that the usefulness of the equipment is tied to blessings, then one must question their competance to provide military gear. Our major combat systems are generally known for technical superiority despite the fact that most other companies do not do this sort of thing.

Indeed, God does not seem to render our military equipment in general less useful for lack of inscriptions or blessings. This sounds bizzarely like the blessings and such bestowed on equipment by Techpriests in Warhammer 40,000.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I hate to break it to you, but that's not coercion to go to church. That's the DIs following their mandate to allow you to go to church. If no one goes, you're all going to be doing something unpleasent. They don't really care. I've had plenty of former drill sergeants work for me, you know. In any case, I doubt whatever they had planned was much more unpleasent than the rest of basic training. The DIs were being nice to you, letting you know that you could have time they wouldn't be screaming at you. Did you seriously think you were going to get free time or something?



Yes, because discounting your anecdotal experience from 26 years ago at one installation is the same as considering anything not on CNN right now old news.



What's your point? Guest speakers are part of military professional development. They are under no obligation to avoid mention of religious topics. Ok, so it was mandatory - tough ****. From your own account it pertained directly to military matters.

Combat is a life-changing experience. Mentally preparing people for it involves understanding of the mental issues, including spiritual questions that come up. You can learn a lot about that from those that have been there. Making you listen to someone's experiences that pertain to what you might have to do isn't a form of coercion.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

In the military always remember your gear is made by the lowest bidder.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

The lowest bidder that can meet the quantity and quality specifications and has enough women and minorities.. or is owned by them.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I really don't have a dog in this fight, I don't work for Trijicon and I'm not in the military. I'm just pointing out possibilities. It may well be that Trijicon is simply honoring the founder and that if the military changes the specs Trijicon will readily comply with the changes. I don't know, either way. But I do commend them for what they've done so far.

However, Scripture is exposed to ridicule and trivialization in many places, and too often by those who should be standing firm on it; putting references on a scope changes that not one iota. (References are not even an actual part of Scripture; they are an addition that aids us in finding what we search for: no more important than a book marker placed between pages).

This is begging to be made into a Penny Arcade strip.

"Whiny ***** should get on IRC if he wants to chat."

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I actually made the post with Penny-Arcade's Jesus in mind.

"Jesus threw up the horns?"
"What can I say.. Jesus is f-ing metal."

The fact that Scripture is open to ridicule in many places does not mean we should do things that tend to encourage such ridicule. Putting it on a rifle scope does change that; it is a clear path to ridicule and false accusations of "crusade". It also makes the company appear dishonest; by embedding the reference with the serial number it makes it look as if they were trying to hide something.

The technicality that the numerical references are what is physically there doesn't really change that; people know what the reference numbers indicate.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Sorry to thread jack but first thought went to the sniper from Saving Private Ryan.

His prayers make sense now as it apparently makes the scope work.

"Be not that far from me, for trouble is near; haste Thee to help me. Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me." ~ Private Jackson

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"Once we realize that imperfect understanding is the human condition, there is no shame in being wrong, only in failing to correct our mistakes."
- George Soros

Not sure why people claiming to be offended think that matters for ****... you have no right to not be offended.

Second, on what basis would the government demand removal of religious writings? Discrimination against that religion? Yeah, not allowed.

Third, retooling your line to not place the inscription is not a zero-cost process, as somebody suggested or implied on page 2. Is it vastly expensive? No, but it isn't free.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Well, as a Major said, (paraphrased) "The situation is similar to US currency. Are we going to stop using money because it has "In God We Trust" printed on it? As long as the sights meet the requirements of the men in combat, they will continue to be used"

And some people whine about that and petition for it to be changed.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

somone petitioned that it be added.
Would you be okay if I petition for "an it harm none; do as you will" to be added?

Neither is appropriate for currency.

As I recall, though, the courts do not agree with your assessment. But, petition away. You have every right to make such a request.

you don't agree with the courts. You can't use them to hide behind in a moral argument in one breath and in the next blast them because they decide against you next time.

Why? If I think they mess up on "this", then it automatically means they mess up on "everything"? That's stupid.

True. But you made no moral argument, only an appeal to authority. aka: The Court Says This. All well and good if you are willing to establish the court as a moral authority. But you're not.

This would be like saying: "My calculator says 7+7 is 14, ergo 7+7 is 14. Sure, My calculator is wrong than 12+2 = 15, but because the calculator says 7+7 is 14, its correct"

2 wrongs don't make a right.