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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:12 am 
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So say's the SCOTUS

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01 ... y-dispute/

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In a stunning reversal of the nation's federal campaign finance laws, the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 Thursday that as an exercise of free speech, corporations, labor unions and other groups can directly spend on political campaigns.

Siding with filmmakers of "Hillary: The Movie," who were challenged by the Federal Election Commission on their sources of cash to pay for the film, the court overturned a 20-year-old ruling that banned corporate and labor money. The decision threatens similar limits imposed by 24 states.

The justices also struck down part of the landmark McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill that barred union- and corporate-paid issue ads in the closing days of election campaigns.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the main opinion, which reads in part that there is "no basis for allowing the government to limit corporate independent expenditures."

"There is no basis for the proposition that, in the political speech context, the government may impose restrictions on certain disfavored speakers," he wrote. "The government may regulate corporate speech through disclaimer and disclosure requirements, but it may not suppress that speech altogether."

Dissenters included Justices John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor.

"The notion that the First Amendment dictated [today's ruling] is, in my judgment, profoundly misguided," Stevens wrote for the others.

"In the context of election to public office, the distinction between corporate and human speakers is significant. Although they make enormous contributions to our society, corporations are not actually members of it," he added.

The ruling is sure to send a jolt to political campaigns throughout the country that are gearing up for the 2010 midterm elections. It will also impact the 2012 presidential race and federal elections to come.

Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain, whose name bears the law that was upended Thursday, said he hadn't read the decision but thought that it was headed that way when he listened to arguments presented last fall. McCain said he does not think it completely repudiates the law he wrote with Wisconsin Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold.

It also undercuts recent congressional legislation mandating tighter controls on political donations that had restricted the flow of corporate dollars into the political system.

The case involves the film by conservative group Citizens United, which criticized then-presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton during the 2008 Democratic presidential primary campaign.

Citizens United planned to air ads promoting its distribution through cable television video-on-demand services. The FEC said the film amounted to a campaign ad and that Citizens United, an incorporated entity that takes corporate money, could only use limited, disclosed contributions from individuals to promote and broadcast it.

Prior to the ruling, Bob Edgar, president of watchdog group Common Cause, warned against overturning McCain-Feingold.

"Money has already corroded the discussion before Congress," he said. "It'll open Pandora's Box."

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, AFL-CIO, National Rifle Association and other groups sided with Citizens United in calling a loosening of restrictions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:16 am 
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I saw this today.

Corporations will be soon purchasing elections even more than they already are.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:16 am 
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yet more reason to hate this country and all of the people running it. It hits the point more and more where I am saddened that we have soldiers who have died to protect the ideals this country was founded on; and the ideals no longer apply. They are now really dying to protect the direct monetary interests of those in power.

And for that I hope all of those in power suffer a fate worse than death.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:43 am 
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Khross says the title here is more informative than mine. No, it really isn't.

This is absolutely the death of representative democracy. Corporations are not people.

If you take the total profits of all the fortune 100 companies, it's something like 600 billion dollars. If those corporations took just 1% of that profit, and put it into electoral politics, they would spend more than twice the amount spent in total for the Obama, McCain, and every senate and congressional race in 2008. Just 1%.

We, the citizens of this country, are now entirely irrelevant to the process of democracy. Corproations now truly own us.

Unless we very quickly pass a constitutional amendment that clearly defines corporations as non persons, and non citizens, we are the US of pepsico. This is the legacy of the Bush administration - total corporate ownership of our government.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Monte wrote:
This is the legacy of the Bush administration - total corporate ownership of our government.


Yeah. Cause Bush is responsible for this. /facepalm

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:02 pm 
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If we're irrelevant, then they don't need to spend that money.

What are they spending all that on, if not to convince all the "irrelevant" people to vote a certain way? And what makes you think they wouldn't just cancel each other out?

Oh that's right.. all corporations will fund evil Republicans. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Now the unions can spend just as freely, and can liberal millionaires, it's free game. No longer telling people how they can spend their money.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Monte, folks would take you much more seriously if you didn't act like chicken little.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Hi. You must be new here.

/em bonks Aizle with an orc shovel

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Are the unions immune from pulling crap and making deals and being in the back pockets of the dems? Why aren't the two libs voicing concern not up in arms about what the unions will do? Wait, you don't have to answer that....

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Its interesting that 8 of the top 10 political spending groups in the US, both directly and indirectly, are labor unions. Its equally interesting that the sole focus by fringe lunatics is purely on the corporations and not the unions.

Its also equally interesting to examine the political spending of unions and how it relates to the actual political beliefs of their members. Unions truly make the individuals irrelevent.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:47 pm 
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I always found it pretty weird that individuals could spend money to influence elections but corporations couldn't. That just seems like a stupidly arbitrary line to draw.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:53 pm 
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I find it even weirder that Group Psychology only applies to Corporations and not Governments.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Corporations are not people.

If you take the total profits of all the fortune 100 companies, it's something like 600 billion dollars. If those corporations took just 1% of that profit, and put it into electoral politics, they would spend more than twice the amount spent in total for the Obama, McCain, and every senate and congressional race in 2008. Just 1%.


I tend to agree. However...you don't. If, as you keep trying to tell me, corporations aren't evil, then corporations don't make decisions--people do. And those corporations won't spend money to influence an election unless the people who make the decisions okay it and approve the influence. And those people...are just people. There's no difference between the corporation spending a bunch of money to influence the election, than 'Joe Plumber' (or Bill Gates, for that matter) doing the same.

I believe that corporations, just like organized religions, worker's unions, and governments, form organic "meta-entities" that have behavior encoded right into their structure, and it takes massive changes--far beyond merely swapping executives or board of directors--alterations to the basic structure and design of the organizations, to fundamentally change their behavior in any meaningful way. So yes, that leads to concerns when it comes to campaign spending.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Corporations are not people.

If you take the total profits of all the fortune 100 companies, it's something like 600 billion dollars. If those corporations took just 1% of that profit, and put it into electoral politics, they would spend more than twice the amount spent in total for the Obama, McCain, and every senate and congressional race in 2008. Just 1%.


But what is it about a corporation that makes them inherently less trustworthy to back election campaigns than individuals? If it's just because some of them have a lot of money, shouldn't we be basing the rules on the net worth of the entity, rather than whether it's a person or a company? But that's stupid too when you consider it, that's like telling someone with $1 million that it's OK for him to back a candidate, but his friend with $2 million can't simply because he has more money.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Thank goodness.

Its about time those restrictions were removed. As donations are speech it also uncaps donations from individuals allowing people with grassroots support to now have a more equal footing with those who got money through corporations or unions. You see there are enough ways to bypass the rules that were in place already (never mind that the FEC was defunded enough to not be able to investigate even Presidential donation scandals in 2008). I make (idiotic) reports to them and they write back the sweetest and most flowery letters of a government agency asking my to update here and there because they have no teeth.

No matter if you like to consider it speech or not your money is your voice. It is true in the market and it is true in politics. You are giving your past time (instead of present time like volunteering) which is a show of commitment much more than a vote (which is protected with massive privacy laws) is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
yet more reason to hate this country and all of the people running it. It hits the point more and more where I am saddened that we have soldiers who have died to protect the ideals this country was founded on; and the ideals no longer apply. They are now really dying to protect the direct monetary interests of those in power.
{snip}

I don't think it's ever been any different, really.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Its interesting that 8 of the top 10 political spending groups in the US, both directly and indirectly, are labor unions. Its equally interesting that the sole focus by fringe lunatics is purely on the corporations and not the unions.

Its also equally interesting to examine the political spending of unions and how it relates to the actual political beliefs of their members. Unions truly make the individuals irrelevent.

What's your source for this, out of curiosity?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Yet another reason to not vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
Are the unions immune from pulling crap and making deals and being in the back pockets of the dems? Why aren't the two libs voicing concern not up in arms about what the unions will do? Wait, you don't have to answer that....


From my perspective, unions and corporations are basically interchangable. I dislike the amount of influence both have within our governmental processes. If it were up to me, I'd disallow all direct lobbying to elected officials or candidates by anyone other than individuals.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm 
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I agree with this decision.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
If it were up to me, I'd disallow all direct lobbying to elected officials or candidates by anyone other than individuals.


The law treats both of the entities you mentioned as individuals.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Hi. You must be new here.

/em bonks Aizle with an orc shovel


Heh. I'm actually just trying to do some damage control for my position.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:53 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
If it were up to me, I'd disallow all direct lobbying to elected officials or candidates by anyone other than individuals.


The law treats both of the entities you mentioned as individuals.


Which IMHO is wrong. Unions and corporations are not individuals. They are organizations that have their own agendas, offering up carrots to their members to forward those agendas, which are notoriously short sighted and usually without regard for long term consequences.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Hi. You must be new here.

/em bonks Aizle with an orc shovel


Heh. I'm actually just trying to do some damage control for my position.



so so true :)

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